So much hair on fire over Pope’s meeting with the nutcase, would like to hear how it came about and what was said, rather than just taking her word and that of her lawyers a RWNJ conservative Catholic magazine.
Now I don’t know, GGail. I have just read this article in the link, and it seems to be true. My gut reaction is one of disappointment with Pope Francis, and although I am only a small MP, I have lost a broad swath of my respect and admiration for him in this. He may certainly be correct about Conscientious Objection being a right, but if he has overlooked the law in determining her JOB does not allow her to exercise this fact, she should just step down, and return all the wages she earned during the controversy. I feel quite sickened over this, actually. If it is true.
as is typical of the American Left, he made some great statements and liberals canonized him (pun intended). It’s like when a GOP congresscritter makes one good vote, we fall all over ourselves to be effing grateful and let our rhetoric wash away the awfulness of the GOP. You are soon to see this with Boehner. Sigh.
He’s the Pope. He’s Catholic. He is anti-abortion. That being said, this is a serious blunder. By even meeting with her, he has condoned her un-American actions as a public official and that is not his place to do on American soil. He’s said some terrific things, but, contrary to American Left fantasies, he is not about to destroy the Church in order to rebuild it in a utopian image. No one can do that, except in the movies. Are you paying attention, Bernie Sanders?
I will probably get kicked off TOD for saying this….people, this is Pope Francis. All I have seen him do since he became Pope is to meet with people who are classified by the rest of us as other….lepers, criminals, homeless, gay, transgender, crippled, poor, and on and on. I’m sure the Repubs think he blundered by meeting with some of those people.
So what. It is who he is, and he is truly more of a follower of the true words of Jesus, and St Francis, than anyone I know. Certainly we could attempt to do a little of the same ourselves. I don’t see it as a blunder. I see his actions as one in a long line of meeting with anyone and everyone as he spreads the word of God and of love.
It is amazing to me how fast we Americans can grease the pole for someone. We love them and praise them and hold them up as a shining example for all of us. That is until they do one little thing we judge as wrong, and then, boom, we toss them out with the trash, something I think this Pope would never do.
And to expend this amount of energy getting all riled up about this idiot woman is to do nothing more than give her power over your precious time on this earth. If we ignore her, if we do not respond to her, she will quickly vanish. Don’t keep renewing her 15 minutes of fame.
REPUBLICANS aren’t big fans of Karl Marx, but perhaps they should ponder his observation that history repeats itself first as tragedy, then as farce. As preposterous presidential candidates dominate the polls and extremists topple congressional leaders, the Republican Party is headed for a replay of the catastrophic Goldwater revolt of the early 1960s. It may be an entertaining spectacle, but it’s dangerous.
**************************
Good Read…
the only difference is that districts are now gerrymandered…it will be a heavy lift to unseat the GOP in the house…
the GOP has rode the back of the extremists to victory…the DEMS have sat on their hands and not voted…even now the DNC allows the GOP to fill the void with noise with no come back ….even now the DNC chooses not to ride the crest of the wave created by the superlative accomplishments of the President…
so as we watch the disarray of the GOP….the DEMS seem to want to repeat the failures of 2010/2014
Gawd, I’m beginning to sound like a Pope-bot defending his every move, but – Charles Pierce:
Pope Francis’ Kim Davis Visit Is the Dumbest Thing He’s Ever Done
The big news today seems to be that Kim Davis, the goldbricking county clerk from Kentucky, met secretly with Papa Francesco in Washington and that he endorsed her current status as a faith-based layabout. Given this pope’s deft gift for strategic ambiguity and shrewd public relations, it’s hard for me to understand how he could commit such a hamhanded blunder as picking a side in this fight. And it’s odd that he (or someone) sought to publicize it through an American media entity that is not wholly sympathetic to his papacy. Inside The Vatican, the e-newsletter that broke the story, is edited by Robert Moynihan, a 79-year old whose patron was Benedict XVI.
God, the crowing from the Right is going to be deafening. Everything he said about capitalism and about the environment is going to be drowned out because he wandered into a noisy American culture-war scuffle in which one side, apparently the one he picked, has a seemingly ceaseless megaphone for its views. What a fcking blunder. What a sin against charity, as the nuns used to say.
This is, obviously, the dumbest thing this Pope ever has done. It undermines everything he accomplished on his visit here……
If he *did* ask to meet her, well, screw him – it would *completely* undermine his message of tolerance, etc.
But we don’t know if he did, all we’re getting is spin – and, no doubt, lies – from Davis’ side. And the very fact the ‘news’ was broken by an ultra conservative Catholic publication makes me think these were the people who set the whole damn thing up. If they arranged for Davis to be brought in to a room where the Pope was meeting people, most of who he’d probably never heard of, he was hardly going to say, ‘ah, Kim Davis, **** off bigot’. 😕
Would love if liberal media people got us a little more info before foaming at the mouth.
He is also speculating on how, when and why. I, for a moment, do not believe this politically savvy pope does not know who this kentucky kook is. As for other meetings he cites as an example of pope meets with all sortsa people, were those meetings done in secrecy?
Gawd knows how many people the Pope has to greet on a trip like that one, probably hundreds, and he’s unlikely to have heard of most of them. I’d guess every friggin’ Vatican official, Cardinal, Archbishop and Bishop gets passes for their buddies to have a very brief audience with him, as favors to acquaintances or for political stunts (like this one, I’m guessing). If Kim Davis is ushered in to a room by Cardinal Nutjob, what is the Pope to do (if he’s even heard of her)? Tell her to go screw herself? The fact that the Vatican is now being so hush-hush about it suggests to me he knows damn well he was used and has no intention of giving it oxygen – if he was good with it, why not release a photo and summary of what was said? And to expect him to monitor in advance meetings arranged by every friggin’ Vatican official, Cardinal, Archbishop and Bishop is silly. So, for the likes of Pierce to swallow this lock, stock and barrel without asking any of those questions first is embarrassing – and plays deliciously in to the hands of that Godfersaken woman’s cheerleaders.
we may not like it, but the rw press will play this up a la ben ghazi, email server and I doubt the left wing angst will play a big role in pushing it.
Personally speaking, I did not believe it all considering the source was the kook’s lawyer. The moment vatican spox said we won’t comment on it, I knew it happened. I am not sorry it happened, heh, he is pope, he is obligated to meet all sortsa people, I get it. I am just disappointed that it happened this way and the vatican tried to dodge it. It is a tiny dent but still a dent.
My theory, in the last thread, was it could be the vatican whackos trying to knee-cap him and I am still holding that theory. I bet francis will be vetting his visitors’ list thrice in future. 🙂
Sounds like a solid theory to me, Vatican whackos in cahoots with US Catholic Church whackos. And, sure, Vatican whackos are capable of anything – didn’t they murder John Paul I? 🙂
Chips – I relished seeing your assessment, and all its parts. Everybody can make up their own minds, of course.
I’m reminded of the rich donors and givers who apparently wanted face time and were in attendance at the visit in NYC to the school, who looked so out of place you knew exactly what was going on, introduced to the Pope by Cardinal Dolan (needless to say, I’m not a big fan, because of his “pal-ing around with” RWNJs at a previous RNC convention, etc., and his gushing, over-the-top, carnival-barker, look-at-me welcome to the dignified Pope – I’d like to see Cardinal Dolan be called for some “important job” behind the scenes at the Vatican, right quick, but I digress). Let’s just say those rich donors are all wife-beaters or thieves or not nice to their aging parents, and the Pope gave them his blessing and a pair of rosary beads, and tomorrow we learned all the sordid details. Blame the Pope for his poor choice?
There are many others who helped plan the Pope’s visit. I don’t think the Pope’s people run a full background check on everybody, including the tag-alongs, I could be wrong. If he did personally agree to specifically meet Kim Weirdo, he received very bad advance advice wrapped around it – I think we’d all agree. If her attorney or someone else “high in somebody’s ranks” received permission to attend a meet-and-greet with a guest, and she was it, I’m not sure the Pope would have had the time to investigate her fully before possibly shaking her hand. (Hey, for all we know, maybe he said to her, if they met, “Jesus said: Love One Another.”) Believe on the plane ride back, he mentioned “conscientious objection is a human right” (as part of his larger comment, when asked). And it is. We know that certain measures are taken to address the rights of conscientious objectors (that’s a “right” in this country, too, of course, but you gotta prove it), such as moving them into another role (as in: get the hell outta Dodge, Kim). I’m for that. Depending on how the story was presented to the Pope, maybe he thought he’d address that issue, as part of his human dignity stance.
Add to this the fact that the Pope said about gay individuals’ continuing to be Catholics (in a larger context which isn’t mentioned), “who am I to judge?” – why would he specifically find a bigot to wrap his arms around and publicize. He’s smart and strategic and humble and looking to do good and Obama-like, which is why one doesn’t have to be Catholic or of any faith whatsoever to find him appealing. He’s how I wish I could be, so maybe I’d even shake ugly Kim’s hand, who knows.
On background, here’s a note on the Pope’s “who am I to judge?” remark, with a link that might help us calmly assess this issue, as you did, Chips (note the “blame the media” portion in the link, and it takes down Bill Donohue, which is a big plus-up for me) … the story it comes from reminds Pope watchers in America not to do what we usually do with our American “attention span of a gnat,” but to try to do what the old Pope might do … keep things in context and decide for yourself whether to “judge.” By the way, I have no intention of sounding haughty, judgmental, or like I’m taking any of this at first glance … which is the entire point behind the comments of those who aren’t ready yet to throw the baby out with the bath water, in the Pope’s case.
***
From the story:
What Francis said was, “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” The difference between what he is quoted as saying, and what he actually said, is not minor. Those who parse his words agree, which is why they parse them. It is important to note that the pope did not offer two sentences: his one sentence was chopped to alter his message.
Ah, just brilliant Jacqueline, and you asked exactly the question I was asking myself all day:
“Why would he specifically find a bigot to wrap his arms around and publicize. He’s smart and strategic and humble and looking to do good.”
If it was Benedict, I wouldn’t have blinked, but why on earth would Francis choose to meet and embrace this woman when he has been working so hard on sending out a message of tolerance, and changing the church’s tone on gay rights?
And if he did choose to meet her, then why keep it secret? What would be the point?
It’s exactly as you said, he’s surrounded by people like Dolan who want him to meet the likes of rich donors, when from day one Francis has clearly been more comfortable in the presence of the poor, sick, discriminated-against, etc.
He probably has limited enough control in the Vatican over who he has to meet in these audiences, when he has an army of officials stuck in the old ways, but I’d imagine he has almost no control when he’s abroad, especially when the likes of Dolan stick their noses in. And, worse, conservative officials trying to push their agenda against his (perceived) ‘librul’ leanings!
The stupidity of some of the comments on Twitter today was something else, like the one attacking him and saying to me, ‘so he came out in favor of gay marriage?’
They’re clueless, they seem to think he’s just a politician who can change his stance on any issue at the drop of a hat, rather than the head of an institution that has a flippin’ gazillion centuries of history – and a book they have to abide by.
Francis has had an extraordinary impact since he was elected, his message has been one of compassion and inclusion, and that they can’t acknowledge his efforts to drag the church with him on this journey – well, their loss.
It almost reminds me of the ‘WHY DIDN’T OBAMA BRING IN SINGLE PLAYER!1!1!1!’ crowd, they just don’t get that when you’re trying to bring change to behemoths – like America and the Catholic Church! – it always has to be inch by inch.
Can you see me standing and applauding? I’d buy you a drink right now, if I were closer. Not only was your comment so very well stated, but you gave me a laugh or two. Loved the “and a book” part, not to mention your accidental (or was it?) use of “SINGLE PLAYER,” because, after all, we’re all players, aren’t we?
And now I shall nap, perchance to dream about “playing.” Love ya.
P.S. Also, the Pope, I believe, chose not to meet with dissidents in Cuba, and was highly criticized (maybe he eventually did, but that’s what I recall). Something tells me he wasn’t coming to America to meet with people like Kim Davis, to cause a brouhaha about life in Kentucky, either, which already had its good ending relating to licenses for same-sex marriages still being granted there.
This article does help with some balance, for sure. Thanks CIC of TOD. Maybe this is all to be used as a benchmark for how insane our media and political sidelining has truly become, hysteria breaks out every single day. If they are using the Pope this time, it could end quite badly. Particularly when his mission was one of worldwide communication and collaboration on how to save our own sorry asses from the destruction we are causing. I sigh. There is so much wrong. I applaud PBO, MO and VPB, for taking this on. They are the bravest Soul Presence we have ever been blessed with. Okay, now I’m done. (maybe)
The left is not helping by rushing to judgment – they’re playing directly into the RW’s hands (AS USUAL) with this premature emo-reaction. We’ve been thru this many times before with our own President….
The fact that we STILL don’t know about the nature of the meeting is in itself quite revealing…if the Pope had met with her as a friend/ally, this would be made clear already. And it’s not…
funnily, when I read about the first time at bj, it was heh, he is pope and he meets all kindsa people, nothing to it. But when it became clear, it was done in secret, I was bummed. Even now, I won’t say he sympathized with her ’cause’, but all the secrecy gives the impression that he does. However suavely we may want to explain it away, it is still a dent.
The pope is a religious figure, and according to their Bible, Jesus met with EVERYONE, the saint and the sinner alike. So we can’t assume that the pope met her in agreement with her position – the pope didn’t put this info out there. Davis and her handlers did, so they need to tell the WHOLE story, not half.
But what does “secret” mean in this context? I doubt she was the only person in the room he met with. Does it mean no press or super secret clandestine meet-up?
When the story broke, some vatican spox said we are not commenting on it and when the story got the legs, they had to come out and admit it and but still wouldn’t comment it. It was all unnecessary typical vatican intrigue. As they say, it’s not the act, it’s the cover-up.
Which is HALF or perhaps quarter of the story. The fact that we still don’t know about the nature of the meeting, or what was said on either side, puts the onus on Davis and her handlers who first decided to go public with it.
And she will sit back and watch the $$$$ flow into her coffers. No way she will do the right thing and give all the money away, as JC would advise her to do. And, if it’s possible, she just gets uglier and uglier and uglier from the inside out. If she was really right and correct in her views, beauty and light would shine from her. That is the Law of Nature. Rather, she looks more and more like DarthCheney with a wig. I am done with this.
I think that Kentucky woman was a tiny tick in the midst of all the other tiny ticks (e.g., those nuns against O’Care) who were grouped together for a quick meet. And Benedict? Well, thought he was lost in the ether somewhere! 🙂
I don’t think Bernie is really running to be President, I think he’s running to secure his brand. Bernie doesn’t get into the weeds of policy making, he only talks in generalities, he never gets specific nor does he goes into great detail about how he would govern.
It is possible that the Pope met with Kim Davis, the Pope could be anywhere and someone comes into a room to meet him. Personally I don’t think the Pope knows Kim Davis from a hole in the wall. The Pope was out doing his Pope thing and Kim Davis showed up.
EXACTLY!!! It’s quite conceivable that a jetlagged, overscheduled pope, who’s in unfamiliar territory can be set up to “meet” someone and not realize the individual and circumstances.
If the pope had invited Ms. Davis for a trip to the Vatican, or invited her to be one of his guests at his various prayer services in DC, NYC or Philly – well, that would be a different matter entirely…
I love Fr. James Martin! I remember him from interviews with Stephen Colbert. Once on the Report, he introduced a Metallica performance while making the heavy metal “devil horns” 🙂 ha ha
Hello TOD on a Wednesday near-afternoonish from MN. Sunny. Crisp. Blue Sky. My kind of a perfect weather 😉 It was 44F this AM.
Congrats to all the Gold ⭐ winners, starting with this fine post and several posts back.
9-30-15
LIVE, already in progress……WH Presser with Josh “The Voice” Earnest
yup, that’ll be first question out of the box. that’s why I am pissed since the media mofos will try to make this Obama’s problem when the lack of judgment was at papal/vatican level.
Yes. I do agree with you here. My guess is that our President will handle it with his usual prowess, and leave the media to stew in their (and Davis’s) worthless bile…
A US judge has dismissed Saudi Arabia as a defendant in lawsuits brought by families of victims of the 9/11 attacks.
The judge said there was insufficient evidence linking the gulf country to the 2001 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people.
Among the evidence dismissed were claims by one man in custody that a Saudi prince helped finance the plot.
Of the 19 men behind the attacks, 15 were citizens of Saudi Arabia.
Judge George Daniels wrote that lawyers did not show sufficient evidence to overcome Saudi Arabia’s sovereign immunity.
He also cleared the Saudi High Commission for Relief of Bosnia & Herzegovina, saying that the charity is covered as well by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign immunity.
And now, before I depart, I repeat my first observation about the photo leading the thread: Yum. (and I don’t mean the dude on the right). ❤
🐻 ❤ Bears are very strong, yes they are! 🐻 Bye Y'all, back in a while. {{{ VC, before the end of September, I will write you an email which will be too long to read all at once. And you may never forgive me! ❤ }}} 🙂
Also, too, he would simply HAVE to stay really strong for two important reasons: one is that his work is demanding and unceasing, and above all, he has to stay as strong as Michelle Obama, just to keep up with her, and to keep feeling worthy of her love!! ❤ ❤ ❤
This is the kinda defensive stands the left and the sane had to take now because of the rw noise. All his other great speeches will be a blurred memory soon and only this will stick.
the Pope delivered a great message. the MSM.. had to find something to blur the message….i suppose they found it…but as far as i am concern…his message of Tolerance…Love…Hope…and Responsibility…cannot be blurred…
Obama White House.gov
The Obama Diary 
GM TODVille!
Congrats, nclb!
Good Afternoon, 57!
GM NC & Congrats on First 🙂
Hello GG!
Hi NC! 🙂
No, there is a humped camel in my way. . .
Congratulations NCLB!
That’s pretty clever CarolMae 😀 😀
Not original! Stole it! 😉
No one will ever know – my lips & fingers are sealed 😀
Thanks, Carol, and clever reply, indeed!
YW, but I lifted it! 😎
good one.
So much hair on fire over Pope’s meeting with the nutcase, would like to hear how it came about and what was said, rather than just taking her word and that of her lawyers a RWNJ conservative Catholic magazine.
Inquiring minds want to know too Chips, so get to researching it for us – will ya?
🙂 Wasn’t it Don who I suspected was the Pope? Don, where are you? We have questions for you.
pshaw.
As much as Don lies? Really???!!!
Don is probably trying to erase his name from that Ashley site 😯
Well, well, well – Don, ya rascal!!!! 🙂
😀 : D 😀 😀
Is this real, or bullshit? Why would Pope Francis bother? And when would he have had time? Sounds like bullshit.
MP, when did he have the time is my question too. Sounds like bullshit – yup!
Now I don’t know, GGail. I have just read this article in the link, and it seems to be true. My gut reaction is one of disappointment with Pope Francis, and although I am only a small MP, I have lost a broad swath of my respect and admiration for him in this. He may certainly be correct about Conscientious Objection being a right, but if he has overlooked the law in determining her JOB does not allow her to exercise this fact, she should just step down, and return all the wages she earned during the controversy. I feel quite sickened over this, actually. If it is true.
GM y’all……..where are the photos? 😦
PRICELESS!
THIS MEETING CERTAINLY SHUT UP MY EX-RIGHT WINGER CHURCH….THIS IS HILARIOUS!
South Africa’s government says it will pay compensation to the families of mineworkers killed during a wage dispute in Marikana in 2012.
The details of the payments will be determined by an independent panel led by a judge, President Jacob Zuma announced.
Police shot dead 34 miners at the Lonmin platinum mine, claiming they were acting in self-defence.
The families have not yet reacted to the president’s announcement.
They have already filed suits claiming compensation for loss of income and medical costs.
The shooting was the most deadly single police incident since the end of apartheid in 1994, and shocked the nation.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34212203
Uh, yum.
A significant self-inflicted dent in his liberal armor.
Indeed, a rather large dent, IMHO.
as is typical of the American Left, he made some great statements and liberals canonized him (pun intended). It’s like when a GOP congresscritter makes one good vote, we fall all over ourselves to be effing grateful and let our rhetoric wash away the awfulness of the GOP. You are soon to see this with Boehner. Sigh.
He’s the Pope. He’s Catholic. He is anti-abortion. That being said, this is a serious blunder. By even meeting with her, he has condoned her un-American actions as a public official and that is not his place to do on American soil. He’s said some terrific things, but, contrary to American Left fantasies, he is not about to destroy the Church in order to rebuild it in a utopian image. No one can do that, except in the movies. Are you paying attention, Bernie Sanders?
So well said 57 – we should never forget the difference between state & religion – never.
I will probably get kicked off TOD for saying this….people, this is Pope Francis. All I have seen him do since he became Pope is to meet with people who are classified by the rest of us as other….lepers, criminals, homeless, gay, transgender, crippled, poor, and on and on. I’m sure the Repubs think he blundered by meeting with some of those people.
So what. It is who he is, and he is truly more of a follower of the true words of Jesus, and St Francis, than anyone I know. Certainly we could attempt to do a little of the same ourselves. I don’t see it as a blunder. I see his actions as one in a long line of meeting with anyone and everyone as he spreads the word of God and of love.
It is amazing to me how fast we Americans can grease the pole for someone. We love them and praise them and hold them up as a shining example for all of us. That is until they do one little thing we judge as wrong, and then, boom, we toss them out with the trash, something I think this Pope would never do.
And to expend this amount of energy getting all riled up about this idiot woman is to do nothing more than give her power over your precious time on this earth. If we ignore her, if we do not respond to her, she will quickly vanish. Don’t keep renewing her 15 minutes of fame.
I completely agree.
LOOKS LIKE THE VLAD HAS BEEN BUSY HEATING UP THE KITCHEN!
REPUBLICANS aren’t big fans of Karl Marx, but perhaps they should ponder his observation that history repeats itself first as tragedy, then as farce. As preposterous presidential candidates dominate the polls and extremists topple congressional leaders, the Republican Party is headed for a replay of the catastrophic Goldwater revolt of the early 1960s. It may be an entertaining spectacle, but it’s dangerous.
**************************
Good Read…
the only difference is that districts are now gerrymandered…it will be a heavy lift to unseat the GOP in the house…
the GOP has rode the back of the extremists to victory…the DEMS have sat on their hands and not voted…even now the DNC allows the GOP to fill the void with noise with no come back ….even now the DNC chooses not to ride the crest of the wave created by the superlative accomplishments of the President…
so as we watch the disarray of the GOP….the DEMS seem to want to repeat the failures of 2010/2014
It appears the media and Congress have selective memories.
Congress refused to give PBO the authority to bomb Syria……..now they have their hair on fire with McBomb. !
Will Kim Davis be Pope Francis for Halloween ?
Gawd, I’m beginning to sound like a Pope-bot defending his every move, but – Charles Pierce:
Pope Francis’ Kim Davis Visit Is the Dumbest Thing He’s Ever Done
The big news today seems to be that Kim Davis, the goldbricking county clerk from Kentucky, met secretly with Papa Francesco in Washington and that he endorsed her current status as a faith-based layabout. Given this pope’s deft gift for strategic ambiguity and shrewd public relations, it’s hard for me to understand how he could commit such a hamhanded blunder as picking a side in this fight. And it’s odd that he (or someone) sought to publicize it through an American media entity that is not wholly sympathetic to his papacy. Inside The Vatican, the e-newsletter that broke the story, is edited by Robert Moynihan, a 79-year old whose patron was Benedict XVI.
God, the crowing from the Right is going to be deafening. Everything he said about capitalism and about the environment is going to be drowned out because he wandered into a noisy American culture-war scuffle in which one side, apparently the one he picked, has a seemingly ceaseless megaphone for its views. What a fcking blunder. What a sin against charity, as the nuns used to say.
This is, obviously, the dumbest thing this Pope ever has done. It undermines everything he accomplished on his visit here……
More here: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a38405/pope-francis-kim-davis-visit/
If he *did* ask to meet her, well, screw him – it would *completely* undermine his message of tolerance, etc.
But we don’t know if he did, all we’re getting is spin – and, no doubt, lies – from Davis’ side. And the very fact the ‘news’ was broken by an ultra conservative Catholic publication makes me think these were the people who set the whole damn thing up. If they arranged for Davis to be brought in to a room where the Pope was meeting people, most of who he’d probably never heard of, he was hardly going to say, ‘ah, Kim Davis, **** off bigot’. 😕
Would love if liberal media people got us a little more info before foaming at the mouth.
nope, pierce is right. the rw media will run away with it with no zero push back.
He’s not, crappy journalism, he draws a whole bunch of conclusions without knowing any of the facts.
This is journalism:
http://papalvisit.americamedia.org/2015/09/30/the-pope-and-kim-davis-seven-points-to-keep-in-mind/
He is also speculating on how, when and why. I, for a moment, do not believe this politically savvy pope does not know who this kentucky kook is. As for other meetings he cites as an example of pope meets with all sortsa people, were those meetings done in secrecy?
Gawd knows how many people the Pope has to greet on a trip like that one, probably hundreds, and he’s unlikely to have heard of most of them. I’d guess every friggin’ Vatican official, Cardinal, Archbishop and Bishop gets passes for their buddies to have a very brief audience with him, as favors to acquaintances or for political stunts (like this one, I’m guessing). If Kim Davis is ushered in to a room by Cardinal Nutjob, what is the Pope to do (if he’s even heard of her)? Tell her to go screw herself? The fact that the Vatican is now being so hush-hush about it suggests to me he knows damn well he was used and has no intention of giving it oxygen – if he was good with it, why not release a photo and summary of what was said? And to expect him to monitor in advance meetings arranged by every friggin’ Vatican official, Cardinal, Archbishop and Bishop is silly. So, for the likes of Pierce to swallow this lock, stock and barrel without asking any of those questions first is embarrassing – and plays deliciously in to the hands of that Godfersaken woman’s cheerleaders.
we may not like it, but the rw press will play this up a la ben ghazi, email server and I doubt the left wing angst will play a big role in pushing it.
Of course they’ll play it up, but the liberal press shouldn’t mimic them.
What liberal press ?:)
Personally speaking, I did not believe it all considering the source was the kook’s lawyer. The moment vatican spox said we won’t comment on it, I knew it happened. I am not sorry it happened, heh, he is pope, he is obligated to meet all sortsa people, I get it. I am just disappointed that it happened this way and the vatican tried to dodge it. It is a tiny dent but still a dent.
I just don’t blame him, though, if it happened as I suspect it did. Mind you, if he asked to meet her …. I’ll delete ALL my comments defending him 🙂
if he asked to meet her ….
hey now, don’t go starting that meme… 🙂
My theory, in the last thread, was it could be the vatican whackos trying to knee-cap him and I am still holding that theory. I bet francis will be vetting his visitors’ list thrice in future. 🙂
Sounds like a solid theory to me, Vatican whackos in cahoots with US Catholic Church whackos. And, sure, Vatican whackos are capable of anything – didn’t they murder John Paul I? 🙂
Chips – I relished seeing your assessment, and all its parts. Everybody can make up their own minds, of course.
I’m reminded of the rich donors and givers who apparently wanted face time and were in attendance at the visit in NYC to the school, who looked so out of place you knew exactly what was going on, introduced to the Pope by Cardinal Dolan (needless to say, I’m not a big fan, because of his “pal-ing around with” RWNJs at a previous RNC convention, etc., and his gushing, over-the-top, carnival-barker, look-at-me welcome to the dignified Pope – I’d like to see Cardinal Dolan be called for some “important job” behind the scenes at the Vatican, right quick, but I digress). Let’s just say those rich donors are all wife-beaters or thieves or not nice to their aging parents, and the Pope gave them his blessing and a pair of rosary beads, and tomorrow we learned all the sordid details. Blame the Pope for his poor choice?
There are many others who helped plan the Pope’s visit. I don’t think the Pope’s people run a full background check on everybody, including the tag-alongs, I could be wrong. If he did personally agree to specifically meet Kim Weirdo, he received very bad advance advice wrapped around it – I think we’d all agree. If her attorney or someone else “high in somebody’s ranks” received permission to attend a meet-and-greet with a guest, and she was it, I’m not sure the Pope would have had the time to investigate her fully before possibly shaking her hand. (Hey, for all we know, maybe he said to her, if they met, “Jesus said: Love One Another.”) Believe on the plane ride back, he mentioned “conscientious objection is a human right” (as part of his larger comment, when asked). And it is. We know that certain measures are taken to address the rights of conscientious objectors (that’s a “right” in this country, too, of course, but you gotta prove it), such as moving them into another role (as in: get the hell outta Dodge, Kim). I’m for that. Depending on how the story was presented to the Pope, maybe he thought he’d address that issue, as part of his human dignity stance.
Add to this the fact that the Pope said about gay individuals’ continuing to be Catholics (in a larger context which isn’t mentioned), “who am I to judge?” – why would he specifically find a bigot to wrap his arms around and publicize. He’s smart and strategic and humble and looking to do good and Obama-like, which is why one doesn’t have to be Catholic or of any faith whatsoever to find him appealing. He’s how I wish I could be, so maybe I’d even shake ugly Kim’s hand, who knows.
On background, here’s a note on the Pope’s “who am I to judge?” remark, with a link that might help us calmly assess this issue, as you did, Chips (note the “blame the media” portion in the link, and it takes down Bill Donohue, which is a big plus-up for me) … the story it comes from reminds Pope watchers in America not to do what we usually do with our American “attention span of a gnat,” but to try to do what the old Pope might do … keep things in context and decide for yourself whether to “judge.” By the way, I have no intention of sounding haughty, judgmental, or like I’m taking any of this at first glance … which is the entire point behind the comments of those who aren’t ready yet to throw the baby out with the bath water, in the Pope’s case.
***
From the story:
What Francis said was, “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” The difference between what he is quoted as saying, and what he actually said, is not minor. Those who parse his words agree, which is why they parse them. It is important to note that the pope did not offer two sentences: his one sentence was chopped to alter his message.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2014/01/journalists-editing-pope-francis-who-are-we-to-judge/
Ah, just brilliant Jacqueline, and you asked exactly the question I was asking myself all day:
“Why would he specifically find a bigot to wrap his arms around and publicize. He’s smart and strategic and humble and looking to do good.”
If it was Benedict, I wouldn’t have blinked, but why on earth would Francis choose to meet and embrace this woman when he has been working so hard on sending out a message of tolerance, and changing the church’s tone on gay rights?
And if he did choose to meet her, then why keep it secret? What would be the point?
It’s exactly as you said, he’s surrounded by people like Dolan who want him to meet the likes of rich donors, when from day one Francis has clearly been more comfortable in the presence of the poor, sick, discriminated-against, etc.
He probably has limited enough control in the Vatican over who he has to meet in these audiences, when he has an army of officials stuck in the old ways, but I’d imagine he has almost no control when he’s abroad, especially when the likes of Dolan stick their noses in. And, worse, conservative officials trying to push their agenda against his (perceived) ‘librul’ leanings!
The stupidity of some of the comments on Twitter today was something else, like the one attacking him and saying to me, ‘so he came out in favor of gay marriage?’
They’re clueless, they seem to think he’s just a politician who can change his stance on any issue at the drop of a hat, rather than the head of an institution that has a flippin’ gazillion centuries of history – and a book they have to abide by.
Francis has had an extraordinary impact since he was elected, his message has been one of compassion and inclusion, and that they can’t acknowledge his efforts to drag the church with him on this journey – well, their loss.
It almost reminds me of the ‘WHY DIDN’T OBAMA BRING IN SINGLE PLAYER!1!1!1!’ crowd, they just don’t get that when you’re trying to bring change to behemoths – like America and the Catholic Church! – it always has to be inch by inch.
Can you see me standing and applauding? I’d buy you a drink right now, if I were closer. Not only was your comment so very well stated, but you gave me a laugh or two. Loved the “and a book” part, not to mention your accidental (or was it?) use of “SINGLE PLAYER,” because, after all, we’re all players, aren’t we?
And now I shall nap, perchance to dream about “playing.” Love ya.
“SINGLE PLAYER”
😳
I blame Manchester United – I’m watching them losing right now, howling “not a SINGLE PLAYER on that team is worthy of the shirt!1!1!’
🙂 Love ya back!
❤ Return to sanity, thank you CIC of TOD.
thank you, JO’B, your perspective is always grounding and thoughtful.
Thank you, MP – enjoy your day – while I take my siesta! ❤
P.S. Also, the Pope, I believe, chose not to meet with dissidents in Cuba, and was highly criticized (maybe he eventually did, but that’s what I recall). Something tells me he wasn’t coming to America to meet with people like Kim Davis, to cause a brouhaha about life in Kentucky, either, which already had its good ending relating to licenses for same-sex marriages still being granted there.
This article does help with some balance, for sure. Thanks CIC of TOD. Maybe this is all to be used as a benchmark for how insane our media and political sidelining has truly become, hysteria breaks out every single day. If they are using the Pope this time, it could end quite badly. Particularly when his mission was one of worldwide communication and collaboration on how to save our own sorry asses from the destruction we are causing. I sigh. There is so much wrong. I applaud PBO, MO and VPB, for taking this on. They are the bravest Soul Presence we have ever been blessed with. Okay, now I’m done. (maybe)
The left is not helping by rushing to judgment – they’re playing directly into the RW’s hands (AS USUAL) with this premature emo-reaction. We’ve been thru this many times before with our own President….
The fact that we STILL don’t know about the nature of the meeting is in itself quite revealing…if the Pope had met with her as a friend/ally, this would be made clear already. And it’s not…
funnily, when I read about the first time at bj, it was heh, he is pope and he meets all kindsa people, nothing to it. But when it became clear, it was done in secret, I was bummed. Even now, I won’t say he sympathized with her ’cause’, but all the secrecy gives the impression that he does. However suavely we may want to explain it away, it is still a dent.
The pope is a religious figure, and according to their Bible, Jesus met with EVERYONE, the saint and the sinner alike. So we can’t assume that the pope met her in agreement with her position – the pope didn’t put this info out there. Davis and her handlers did, so they need to tell the WHOLE story, not half.
But what does “secret” mean in this context? I doubt she was the only person in the room he met with. Does it mean no press or super secret clandestine meet-up?
When the story broke, some vatican spox said we are not commenting on it and when the story got the legs, they had to come out and admit it and but still wouldn’t comment it. It was all unnecessary typical vatican intrigue. As they say, it’s not the act, it’s the cover-up.
Well, the Vatican says it will only confirm the meeting and not make any other statements. So we’re left with her version of the story.
Which is HALF or perhaps quarter of the story. The fact that we still don’t know about the nature of the meeting, or what was said on either side, puts the onus on Davis and her handlers who first decided to go public with it.
You. Said. It. All!
And she will sit back and watch the $$$$ flow into her coffers. No way she will do the right thing and give all the money away, as JC would advise her to do. And, if it’s possible, she just gets uglier and uglier and uglier from the inside out. If she was really right and correct in her views, beauty and light would shine from her. That is the Law of Nature. Rather, she looks more and more like DarthCheney with a wig. I am done with this.
I wouldn’t worry about Davis. Karma is taking notes, and time will be her teacher or judge.
Preach sister!
^5
I think that Kentucky woman was a tiny tick in the midst of all the other tiny ticks (e.g., those nuns against O’Care) who were grouped together for a quick meet. And Benedict? Well, thought he was lost in the ether somewhere! 🙂
Also, I think that guy who follows the Pope around handing out little square thingys might be this:
You’ll notice this in all the video where he’s meeting with people.
meeting with Kay Davis does not tarnish the message of the POPE….his message of Hope, Tolerance, Love, Responsibility….
Oh…but HRC and Sanders want to run their campaigns on “fixing” Obamacare…like that will bring the Latinos jumping in their arms…
I don’t think Bernie is really running to be President, I think he’s running to secure his brand. Bernie doesn’t get into the weeds of policy making, he only talks in generalities, he never gets specific nor does he goes into great detail about how he would govern.
^5. He is enjoying his temporary moments of fame. If you can call it that.
So did the House vote on the CR? Have we avoided a shutdown (until the GOP manufactures a new crisis).
I don’t think that clowns show has happened yet.
Damn………
This is so cool! With 1600 euros you can transform a shipping container into an epic off-grid home. Photos included here:
http://www.espritsciencemetaphysiques.com/avec-1600-euros-vous-pouvez-transformer-un-conteneur-maritime.html
I want one! Don’t know where I’d put it, but I want one! 🙂
It is possible that the Pope met with Kim Davis, the Pope could be anywhere and someone comes into a room to meet him. Personally I don’t think the Pope knows Kim Davis from a hole in the wall. The Pope was out doing his Pope thing and Kim Davis showed up.
EXACTLY!!! It’s quite conceivable that a jetlagged, overscheduled pope, who’s in unfamiliar territory can be set up to “meet” someone and not realize the individual and circumstances.
If the pope had invited Ms. Davis for a trip to the Vatican, or invited her to be one of his guests at his various prayer services in DC, NYC or Philly – well, that would be a different matter entirely…
If you’re not the Pope, Don, you deserve to be! + 1,000,000,000!
Trust me, Chips, I couldn’t be the Pope for the mere fact that 90% of my thoughts are impure.
😆 Well, 10% holy isn’t bad, you’ll do nicely!
I say we install Don, Pope of TODville.
{{{{{{{{white smoke}}}}}}}}
I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy!
Which is what makes you worthy.
Yeah, maybe he got punked.
I wouldn’t be surprised, meta, the Pope is surrounded by treachery like most people that try to do good and great things.
drip drip drip
And in the history of Popes – you have never said a greater truth
Defense Sec. Carter to speak at 2 PM.
Kevin McCarthy has only passed two pieces of Legislation since he came to Congress. He renamed two post offices.
So in other words McCarthy has accomplished as much Legislatively as Bernie Sanders has?
DAMN…Sir Don, you took the thoughts right out of my brain! Was just about to post that Sanders is neck n neck with McCarthy on legislative front! 🙂
Great minds and all…. 🙂 🙂
Ha!
I mean when your shit doesn’t have a shelf life of eight hours you might need to go have a seat.
I love Fr. James Martin! I remember him from interviews with Stephen Colbert. Once on the Report, he introduced a Metallica performance while making the heavy metal “devil horns” 🙂 ha ha
Hello TOD on a Wednesday near-afternoonish from MN. Sunny. Crisp. Blue Sky. My kind of a perfect weather 😉 It was 44F this AM.
Congrats to all the Gold ⭐ winners, starting with this fine post and several posts back.
9-30-15
LIVE, already in progress……WH Presser with Josh “The Voice” Earnest
MSM to try to get PBO to weigh in on the Kim Davis/Pope incident in 5…4..3..2..1…
Actually, that’s probably all they care about at the end of the day – “WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR OBBBAMMA?!?!”
yup, that’ll be first question out of the box. that’s why I am pissed since the media mofos will try to make this Obama’s problem when the lack of judgment was at papal/vatican level.
Yes. I do agree with you here. My guess is that our President will handle it with his usual prowess, and leave the media to stew in their (and Davis’s) worthless bile…
You know, the Pope also had a private meeting with Rusty Boehner and I hardly think he endorses Boehner’s politics.
😆
Exactly.
This!
A US judge has dismissed Saudi Arabia as a defendant in lawsuits brought by families of victims of the 9/11 attacks.
The judge said there was insufficient evidence linking the gulf country to the 2001 attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people.
Among the evidence dismissed were claims by one man in custody that a Saudi prince helped finance the plot.
Of the 19 men behind the attacks, 15 were citizens of Saudi Arabia.
Judge George Daniels wrote that lawyers did not show sufficient evidence to overcome Saudi Arabia’s sovereign immunity.
He also cleared the Saudi High Commission for Relief of Bosnia & Herzegovina, saying that the charity is covered as well by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign immunity.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34405451
And now, before I depart, I repeat my first observation about the photo leading the thread: Yum. (and I don’t mean the dude on the right). ❤
🐻 ❤ Bears are very strong, yes they are! 🐻 Bye Y'all, back in a while. {{{ VC, before the end of September, I will write you an email which will be too long to read all at once. And you may never forgive me! ❤ }}} 🙂
Also, too, he would simply HAVE to stay really strong for two important reasons: one is that his work is demanding and unceasing, and above all, he has to stay as strong as Michelle Obama, just to keep up with her, and to keep feeling worthy of her love!! ❤ ❤ ❤
This is the kinda defensive stands the left and the sane had to take now because of the rw noise. All his other great speeches will be a blurred memory soon and only this will stick.
Mission Acccomplished!!…
the Pope delivered a great message. the MSM.. had to find something to blur the message….i suppose they found it…but as far as i am concern…his message of Tolerance…Love…Hope…and Responsibility…cannot be blurred…
Chat on
http://theobamadiary.com/2015/09/30/chat-on-120/
Interesting narrative by Pope Francis in Italian, a summary of the phases of his trip.