12
Jul
15

#ThisIsACoup – Updates on Greece

As most of you know, I was hoping for a “Yes” vote in the Greek referendum, especially as the proposal which the Tsipras government put forth this week encompassed most of the demands which Greece’s creditors had been making.

The Syriza proposals were approved by the creditors, and sent to the Eurozone finance ministers. And then Germany got in the act.

In an act of suicidal hubris, Germany is demanding nothing short of humiliation for Greece. Even though I had hoped for a Yes vote, this petty revenge is unbelievable from a country which plunged Europe into two World Wars. It is Germany’s gambit to establish the EU as merely a Greater German Co-Prosperity Sphere.

Here is where we stand at the moment.

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Newspaper headlines.

Frankfurter Allgemeine

Translation: Trust has been lost; Doubts of Greece’s willingness to reform.

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Le Figaro

Translation: Greece has driven a wedge between France and Germany

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Liberation

Translation: What game is Germany playing?

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Wall Street Journal

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A note on the “time-out” Greece is being threatened with: There is no provision in the EU treaty for such a time-out. Either you kick Greece out of the euro, or you don’t. So the eurozone (read: Germany), is hoping Greece will be a good little child and accept needed chastisement. Of course, this chastisement means penury for a generation. Rules aren’t being broken to help a member nation in solidarity, but to punish it for daring to go against Germany.

Another note. Years ago on the Great Orange Satan, some lovely gentleman wrote a post saying that the American Dream was over, and you needed to find some way to emigrate to Europe, where progressivism and freedom reigned. I wonder what a pensioner in Athens would think of that.


107 Responses to “#ThisIsACoup – Updates on Greece”


  1. 1 sabreen60
    July 12, 2015 at 6:02 pm

    Thanks LL. And hello TODers

    LL, I’m going to need some explanation on Germany.

    • July 12, 2015 at 6:04 pm

      Basically, Germany has decided that Greece can’t be trusted to enact the proposals it put forth on Thursday, so the country basically has to go into receivership and have every decision it makes audited from the outside.

      • 3 sabreen60
        July 12, 2015 at 6:06 pm

        Whoa! Does Germany have a hidden agenda? Exactly what does Germany gain from this action – over than being vindictive?

      • 5 theo67
        July 12, 2015 at 10:06 pm

        This is the third loan made to Greece, and they haven’t really implemented any of the reforms they promised in the past. If they have every intent of honoring the deal this time, why wouldn’t they want to be audited?

        • 6 amk for obama
          July 12, 2015 at 10:13 pm

          their sovereignty ?

          • 7 theo67
            July 12, 2015 at 10:18 pm

            Really, I am confused how this debt business ended up being about democracy and sovereignty. Greece owes the money – yes, it was a debt incurred with the help of a bad deal by Goldman Sachs, but the Greek government went into that bad deal with their eyes wide open. The Greek still don’t collect enough taxes to fund the government. Of course they are going to feel like they’re suffering after having a hugely bloated social program that didn’t collect enough money to pay for it – losing all of those benefits and government jobs is going to feel extremely painful – especially for everyday Greeks who probably weren’t aware of the chicanery of Goldman and their government at the time. But this is not the first deal the Greek have struck to repay their loan. It’s not the first time they’ve promised reforms – but it’s the first time they’re having to put some skin in the game to commit to those reforms.

            Greece is not going to come out of debt without several very painful years ahead of them. They need to focus on building an economy and tax system that can get them out of debt – instead of calling referenda on “democracy” and “sovereignty”, as though those are issues on the table. They are not. There is money owed. They are part of a collective. They need to figure out how to pay back the money they own and put their country on a stronger footing. Name-calling isn’t going to do it.

            • 8 amk for obama
              July 12, 2015 at 10:23 pm

              so it’s all borrower’s fault then, never mind the lending banks that lent money to such a free-loader, all ‘cos of ‘margins’ and then got rewarded for financial malpractices & frauds first out of the box that was “bailout”? May be you ought to take a look where their ‘wiser’ and ‘prudent’ brethern are on their own debts.

              • 9 theo67
                July 12, 2015 at 11:02 pm

                I say it’s the fault of Golman and the Greek government at that time, that put the country into a bad state. Then, the PM who exposed the fraud tried to put things right and the Greek people voted him out. After that, it’s been downhill. Social programs are great if they’re responsibly managed. Greece did not properly manage their social programs – they had too many government employees, too many benefits, and didn’t make sure they were collecting enough taxes to fund the good stuff. They’ve been getting bailouts since 2010. Yes, the ECB and others have their share of the blame, but Greece is not a baby. Just because the people of a country vote for a liberal government, doesn’t mean the rest of Europe did. They still want their money back.

                If Greece doesn’t want to deal, they don’t have to. But, it’ll be even harder, with bad credit, no trust among their partners, still in debt, a new and worthless currency. Granted, they’ll still have their sovereignty and their democracy – so that might be a comfort. But, let’s be practical. For example, if your mortgage doesn’t get paid, your bank doesn’t let you live for free, plus take a luxurious vacation just because you want it. It just seems unreasonable to me that the lending banks are being blamed for loaning the money on good faith – twice – and balking at throwing more money after bad.

    • July 12, 2015 at 7:06 pm

      Congrats on 1st Sabreen 🙂

      Essential thread, LL. Well done.

  2. 14 carolyn
    July 12, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    I don’t like it when Germany starts being a bully again……

  3. 16 Nerdy Wonka
    July 12, 2015 at 6:15 pm

    Wow. Just wow. This is a new low.

    His tweets on Venus are also sickening. Frum didn’t know that he was posting his disgusting DMs on public Twitter. He then rushed to delete them, but no dice. Karma is interesting like that.

    Also too, Germany not being satisfied until they go for Greece’s jugular. That’s messed up, Germany. Real messed up.

    • July 12, 2015 at 8:13 pm

      The white bigot has to fine a reason why the black woman is kicking those lily white women butts, how darn she. She must be doing something illegal. I got it she must be using steroids, let’s try to damage her legacy as being the best. David Frum is a Republican, a low down dirty racists bigot.

    • 18 amk for obama
      July 12, 2015 at 10:16 pm

      by his stupid logic, steffi graf is the number one steriod user.

      fucksticks gonna be fucksticks.

  4. 19 Vicki
    July 12, 2015 at 6:18 pm

    LL
    This article has it right.
    You are a mensch for writing it.
    We are all getting smarter together. Thank you.

  5. July 12, 2015 at 6:25 pm

    thanks for the update and the ‘for real’ explanation, LL.

  6. July 12, 2015 at 6:27 pm

    Thanks a million for this LL. I was out of touch for most of the week on the demands being placed on Greece, and just caught up last night. Just incredible. eg Raise the retirement age to 67, sell off state-owned ports, raise the corporation tax, etc, etc – this after the nation voted for a left wing government, and supported them again in the referendum. In other words, screw your democracy, bow to our conservative/RW demands. It’s beyond belief.

    • 24 Vicki
      July 12, 2015 at 6:33 pm

      plundering the nation of Greece and enslaving its citizens. Selling off its parts.
      This is the IMF and ECB and EU’s plan.

      I don’t know what will happen.
      So far Alexis Tsipras has led the Greek people to stand on their feet and fight rather than fall to their knees and beg.

      • 25 FoxfireTX
        July 12, 2015 at 7:08 pm

        Actually, his proposal that was submitted included nearly everything that the EU demanded before the vote so I have no idea why he had the vote. And I would guess it hurt him politically. He puts it to the people then ignores what they say and offers the EU what they wanted to begin with. But now they are punishing him for holding the vote by making additional demands. Angela Merkel is not going to come out of this well.

    • July 12, 2015 at 6:46 pm

      The thing is, Syriza’s proposal of Thursday accepted much of this. What Germany is doing now is nothing short of sowing the earth with salt.

      • July 12, 2015 at 6:49 pm

        As Krugman said, it’s not even about economics now, it’s pure vindictiveness. It’s a reminder to all Europe’s weaker nations to behave themselves, or else.

  7. 28 Vicki
    July 12, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    Angela Merkel—-if you don’t know by now
    Christine Lagarde—-(bankster with planted on smile that never reaches her eyes)
    Kristina de Kirchener—–ask an Argentinian
    Maggie Thatcher——RW Conservative destructive nightmare

    Still think USA Needs a woman president? We Need an empathetic, decent, caring, smart and kind President. ridenwithbiden+ meta’s tweet

  8. 29 Allison
    July 12, 2015 at 6:32 pm

  9. July 12, 2015 at 6:40 pm

  10. 40 Vicki
    July 12, 2015 at 6:42 pm

    The often confused and often mistaken Katrina van den Heuvel has a piece up at The Nation which asks, “Will Europe’s leaders come to their senses on Greece?”
    No, Katrina, they won’t. The enslavement by debt of the Greek people is The Plan, not a side effect.

  11. July 12, 2015 at 6:42 pm

  12. July 12, 2015 at 6:44 pm

  13. July 12, 2015 at 6:46 pm

  14. July 12, 2015 at 6:49 pm

    I am actually getting a bit of a belly ache reading some of this.

    The larger perspective of this often seems to get lost. Do I agree with everything my government does? No, I don´t. Do I agree with every bit of Merkel´s foreign policy? No, certainly not. But here are a few things that give me that stomach ache when reading some of the arguments here. I am aware that tone of voice is left out in online posts so I hope nobody feels attacked by this, for I am saying all of this with respect to all you guys, but some things I feel need to be stated. Here are some, from a German perspective:

    1)
    what seems to get lost in the argument is that there have been decades of bad management in Greece, of government spending so extensive that it´s beyond comparison to government spending that is for example being discussed and criticized by conservatives in the US.

    2)
    Speaking of comparability. I often notice that terms like “government spending” and “conservative” are used synonymous for the US and Europe. They are not. Our conservatives are not yours. Our conservative tend a lot more to the political centre than American conservatives and there is no equivalent in Germany for the GOP, yet often it sounds to me like German politics with regards to austerity plans concerning Greece are likened to US conservative anti spending attitudes. This does not match fully just like other terms such as “liberalism” mean something different here (Liberalism in America more refers to social issues, in Europe it´s economics)

    3)
    The EU is a Union of states. When one goes bankrupt, it pulls the others down. Are there disadvantages about the Euro? Sure, but there are in my opinion a lot more advantages to it. However, what is happening there is that when one country goes bankrupt it effects the entire EU so what is done sit aht money is given to the ailing states to get them out of their crisis. And with Greece this has happened again and again over recent years so I find it rather logical that we tie our money to bail out Greek economy to some agreements. Are all of them good? No, surely not, but do not forget that Germany is also the country paying most to save Greece. And by paying I mean I pay for it. With my taxes. That means I expect things being done to better the situation. And if a country spent years in mismanagement that means they need to pull it together. This is certainly carried out on the backs of the people but that means there is wrong blame being pointed. The blame should be on the Greek government, not on Germany for tieing yet more money to rescue to conditions.

    4)
    I read some comments on here, concerning this post that quite saddened me. Germany is trying to dominate the EU. Germany is starting to bully again. Really? I´m not even going to get there. This is a country with a success story like few others in the Western world when it comes to pulling itself out of a dark history with the help of others admittedly but establishing a democracy that has stood firmly for more than 65 years now. Calling us bullies again in connection to this development is hurtful. I am far from being a patriot. National pride is a strange concept to me as a history teacher who knows the results of overblown nationalism and where it can lead but no, we are not bullies any more. I can understand disagreement, it is valid and okay and freedom of speech. But the bullying argument draws an unjustified line into far far darker times that I find very hurtful.

    5) We´re the most powerful economy in the EU which means we are the ones that pay most to Greece. Which means that yes, our foreign politics have a say in what happens around here. But the US is dominant as well. That´s how things are. Powerful economies carry great decisive power, great influence.

    Well, I hope I was stepping on nobody´s toes but some of what I was reading on here hurt and I have always liked being around here so I had a feeling this needed to be said.

    • July 12, 2015 at 6:59 pm

      I hope *I* didn’t step on your toes! As I said, I wrote this piece because I *do* believe that Greece had to make painful sacrifices to secure funding. I’m quite aware of Greece’s profligacy. And in the end the Syriza govt seems to have accepted the creditors’ demands. It’s the fact that now they’ve come back and said “No, not good enough” that has me galled. No one is seeing that the the whole European project is at stake. No one will get everything it wants. As a Europhile this is what tears at me. German in the EU, like the US in the world, is the dominant power. But with that power comes much responsibility. And I think Chancellor Merkel is losing sight of that.

      I’m glad for your perspective. This is a vale of tears through which we’re traveling.

      • July 12, 2015 at 7:04 pm

        Thank you for your reply 🙂 I share much of your viewpoint, I think the issue right now is that Merkel and her government have the feeling that the Greek government is not sincere about what they are willing to do, that´s actually the credo right now. Not a “we´re not helping” kind of mindset.

        I guess what most got me upset is that just skimming through the remarks here i was suddenly faced with a wall of remarks that, put together looked simplyfying against Germany, putting us not only in an unjustifyedly bad guy position to an extent I couldn´t agree on but also drawing subtle lines to our past that just hurt pretty deep.

        • July 12, 2015 at 7:11 pm

          As a German, how do you think this will play out over the next 24-48 hours? Will Merkel compromise? Will she accept the concessions Greece made? Or are we heading for a dark place? I’m really fearful of where Europe is heading.

          • July 12, 2015 at 7:14 pm

            I do not know. I would tend towards saying that some sort of agreement will be reached.

            • July 12, 2015 at 7:24 pm

              I truly hope so. The two greatest experiments in human history have been the United States and the European Union. The first that a free people can govern itself, and evolve to include more people in that dream, and the second that a continent riven by war can come together in peace. I think the peace of the world remains wedded in these two dreams remaining in place.

    • 55 Vicki
      July 12, 2015 at 7:10 pm

      niliatheil—The world “forgave” much of Germany’s debt after WW2. The world wanted Germany to get back on its feet.
      Hard to square with Germany’s refusal to write down any of Greece’s debts. Not to mention that Merkel is making it a moral issue.

      • July 12, 2015 at 7:13 pm

        This is not just a German issue. it´s a European issue. It´s not just Merkel denying that right now and as I said it´s not even that opinion that was bugging me. You´re free to see it that way, democracy means a right to disagree.

        What was bugging me was the several WWII allusions I spotted here. As a nonpatriotic German and an expert on history and as a world citizen there is hardly a bigger insult. It just makes me sad to still hear that being said.

    • July 12, 2015 at 7:14 pm

      Niliathiel, thanks a million for your perspective on this, really appreciated.

      I don’t think anyone could or would defend Greece’s handling of their economic affairs over the years, it’s been shambolic. But the issue now is what to do about their current situation. The proposed measures are brutal and would have a devastating impact on the Greek people, who are already suffering enough. Nobody, surely, can defend that? Of course Greece has to get its act together, and Tsipras and Co have to quit their grandstanding and come up with workable solutions, but this is too much – and it is also wholly undemocratic, which is worrying. Similar happened in Ireland, the people elected a left-leaning government who were then effectively stripped of all power by Europe with RW austerity measures imposed. That is shamefully anti-democratic.

      As for the US and Europe’s conservatives – they are, generally, world’s apart on social issues, but I don’t think there’s a huge difference on economic policy. Look at the recent budget in the UK. The GOP could only drool. It’s the same ideology, and it always targets the weakest in society.

      I just think what’s going on right now is terrifying, more than anything because it’s an absolute attack on democracy. And Germany, while leading the attack on Greece’s democracy, is far from alone in doing it.

      • July 12, 2015 at 7:23 pm

        Chips I agree. A few thngs that are important for me to clarify though.

        1) I agree that some of the things that are asked are too harsh. I too issue not so much with the harshness of it, but more with it being seen by some here as a thing that seems to be Germany driven only, at least it came across that way to me. it´s a proposal suggested by the EU financial ministers, not Germany alone. germany right now is however one of a few states thinking Greece might not be sincere in its intentions.

        2) The Greece government and Tsirpas in particularly ran on an anti EU sort of platform. Tsirpas promised things he knew he would NEVER be able to keep, promises about the economic rescue that everyone outside Greece knew were utterly utopian. This guy is very disruptive to the talks, also because that way it must look to the Greek people like they are being betrayed. But the fact that Tsirpas is a big part of teh betrayal is left aside.

        Yes we DO have to help Greece and yes Germans HAS a big responsibility, but things need to be put in perspective which for me means seeing Tsirpas´ role in making this disaster more acute.

        The attack on democracy as it has been called a few times here already is therefore to be seen in the context of dangerously false campaign promises.

        • July 12, 2015 at 7:41 pm

          Hiya Niliathiel, I agree now on Tsirpas, for a while I saw him as a hero, but I’m less and less convinced – I read someone comparing him to Bernie Sanders today, and after laughing I nodded. It’s easy to promise the world when you’re not in power, less easy to deliver it when you’re put in a position of responsibility. But if the Greeks feel betrayed by him and his party, they can vote him out next time – so democracy, on that level, breathes. Less so with the demands being placed on a people who elected a left-wing government (regardless of the honesty of that govt) – what is even the point of elections if that can happen? eg Greece are being told to privatize ports. Who knows (I don’t!), maybe it makes sense, but privatization is the ultimate symbol of conservative politics, it is not what the Greeks voted for. And the demand to raise their corporation tax – again, a similar demand was made of Ireland by Europe because the Irish rate is lower than most EU countries and there was anger over it because Ireland was attracting so many multi-national corporations. But the point is that countries like France, while nominally having higher corporation rates, have so many loopholes the rate is a joke. For smaller economies, like Ireland’s and like the Greek one, a lower corporation tax is crucial if they are to attract multi-nationals that will create employment. So, that particular demand on Greece stood out for me, it is utterly unfair and destructive.

          • July 12, 2015 at 7:44 pm

            Agreed on Tsirpas and I can see your point economically, it makes absolute sense, The thing however is that tehre are two conflicting things: Greece did not just vote for Tsirpas, they also decided to be part of teh EU. They are not forced into that. But this is the conflict, as much as i see the issue with this.

      • 61 jziglar
        July 12, 2015 at 7:32 pm

        Actually there are some difference between conservatives in some European countries when it comes to economics. If Angela Merkel and her party were in the U.S they would be democrats. The UK conservative party is closer on economic issues but in other European states that isn’t the case.

        • July 12, 2015 at 7:48 pm

          Sharing your classification on Merkel and the democrats. they don´t match in all issues, but there is absolutely no equivalent for the GOP in Germany. They´d be unelectable to our mentality.
          I actually had that discussion with an American conservative two years ago who asked me “if I wouldn´t agree whether the issues states such as Greece have are the result of fiscal liebralism because now Merkel certainly seems to have a more logical, reasonable conservative approach.” I told him he needs to be careful defining liberalism and conservatism not as synonyms and told him just what you wrote there, that our conservatives are far closer to the American democrats than the GOP.
          I think I broke his world view a little bit. Sorreh for that. 😛

        • July 12, 2015 at 7:50 pm

          Oh no, I’m not saying conservatives across Europe are identical, of course there is a scale. ‘Conservatives’ in Ireland, for example, look like Marxists next to the UK Tories. I’m just saying there is a general guiding ideology for them all, that government’s role in our lives should be reduced, and that shows up in some of the demands being placed on Greece, eg the privatization of nationally-owned assets, like ports. There are degrees to their zeal or brazenness in trying to implement that ideology, eg the UK Tories would love nothing more than to dismantle the National Health Service, but for all its faults it is much loved, so they’re only ‘brave’ enough to chip away at it.

    • 64 FoxfireTX
      July 12, 2015 at 7:24 pm

      Welcome! And thanks for your perspective. But what you’re saying is not all that different from we live with here as the “United” States. Our most prosperous states end up supporting and paying for the stupid decisions of many others, most of those in the South and controlled by the Republicans. That is part of a union. But we have some safeguards as a result of having the over arching federal government, and citizens of the US accept it. When the governor of TX was talking about seceding from the Union a few years ago I’m sure many of the prosperous states were thrilled at the thought they would no longer have to support TX. Simply put, if you want to be a union you accept the inequality and the good with the bad. That doesn’t mean the Greek people should be destroyed in the process. They literally are dyeing from lack of medicine, etc. In the end, I guess it comes down to whether the people of the various states of Europe really want a European Union.

      • July 12, 2015 at 7:29 pm

        it does come down to that, but the comparison isn´t such a good one. There are some parallels, yes, but the EU is not a federal states sort of union, it´s an economic union of independent nations with different, independent governments that include a range of government forms rangign from monarchy to democracy in various shapes and shades. The connections between the European nations are tehrefore of a different quality than that between the separate states of the US.

        • July 12, 2015 at 7:31 pm

          I think what Greece’s problems have highlighted is whether the EU will become a true federal union, or merely an economic union. If it remains an economic union, we’ll have more problems like this. A political union seems to be the only way to make the economics work.

          • July 12, 2015 at 7:34 pm

            A political union is not going to happen. It contradicts one of the most important principles of modern politics, fixed in the foundations of the UN and that is the sovereignty of individual nations. Forming a political union would mean countries giving up on their sovereignty and individual governments.

            • July 12, 2015 at 7:37 pm

              but the founders of the EEC envisioned an eventual “United States of Europe”. If the Articles of Confederacy hadn’t been supplanted by the Constitution, history would be radically different.

              • July 12, 2015 at 7:41 pm

                But that was a different time when the sovereignty of nations was not yet that firmly engraved in the politcal landscape of western politics. I have my problems trying to envision how that sort of transformation could even begin to take place.
                Through the Brits, with their history of conquest?
                Through Germany with ours?
                I hate to envision the backlash by the itnernational press no matter how that issue miht even be approached, even if everyone here was perfectly happy about it.

        • 72 FoxfireTX
          July 12, 2015 at 7:55 pm

          I understand, but that is part of being an economic union when the individual sovereigns are not comparable. The strong end up carrying the weak if you’re going to be a union. And because the union is comprised of sovereigns, you can and should expect to always see disparity in each country’s economy. It is decision time for the EU. But if Greece leaves, it is hard to believe that this won’t happen again with another country, and eventually the EU will no longer be a union even on pure economics.

          • July 12, 2015 at 8:00 pm

            However being a union also means cooperation. The issue of too harsh conditions has been discussed at length here but I for one do think there is a point in not giving money without some demands at least seeing the mismanagement. I work hard for my Euros, I kind of expect responsibility in how they are being spent and if some of my tax money goes into not bailing out but constantly putting money into an almost bankrupt part of that union which fails to initiate some trust I have a problem with that.

            Again i am right now not debating whether or not the conditions are too harsh – we have stated they are – I am merely explaining my position on what makes a union work. it´s cooperation and sticking to some basic rules.

            This of course is a simplified post just stating a basic fact, but it´s 2 am here…

            • July 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm

              Don’t you have school tomorrow? Oh, wait, summer. Never mind.

            • 77 FoxfireTX
              July 12, 2015 at 8:25 pm

              Absolutely, but there are ways to temper the demands so there are no additional hardships on the Greek people. Greece didn’t get into this mess overnight and it won’t get overnight. It needs long term restructuring. But there must be some balance.

              In any event, I am happy that you felt comfortable enough to come here and express your views. Please come back and join in on other topics as well. Is Germany as happy about the nuclear agreement as we are here?

              • July 13, 2015 at 3:57 am

                Thanks 🙂
                Over the whole Greece debate the nuclear agreement has not been the top focus of our news, but I could be mistaken since I was on holidays for almost two weeks and was pretty much cut off my regular news sources.
                Anyways I would guess so. We´re very interested in non-nukes things, considered that we have decided for example to get rid of all our nuclear energy and thus all our power plants over the next couple of years. Plus I would guess taht as a country who doesn´t even possess own nukes we´d always be glad to see this evil gone from the world.

  15. July 12, 2015 at 6:56 pm

    • 80 Vicki
      July 12, 2015 at 7:04 pm

      Hard to blame the weary participants. Hang in there folks. You are making history.
      Much more important to get it right then to get it over with.
      Don’t get me wrong. i am as impatient as anyone and I am in the comfort of my own home. Easy for me to talk.
      Still, the World and its future hang in the balance. If you must, people, take your time and get it right.

  16. 81 Allison
    July 12, 2015 at 6:57 pm

  17. July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm

  18. July 12, 2015 at 7:08 pm

    • 85 Vicki
      July 12, 2015 at 7:12 pm

      Bibi the Blood soaked Bully is losing it even more than usual.
      He keeps it up and his US support will be No Jews and nothing but GOP politicians and warmongers.

  19. July 12, 2015 at 7:12 pm

    LL, sadly you are correct in your analysis of Angela Merkel and Germany. At a time of crisis when Europe needs to broaden and include, and when Germany needs to move from “Me to We”, we are getting the total opposite. Germany under Angela Merkel is unfit and unable to lead in Europe and that will have devastating consequences for the European Union.

  20. July 12, 2015 at 7:16 pm

    Tsipras responds:

  21. July 12, 2015 at 7:26 pm

  22. July 12, 2015 at 7:34 pm

    Ok, I just want to say this: the varying viewpoints on the Greek problem expressed on this post is why I consider you all my brothers and sisters. We’ve had differing opinions, but not descended into invective. Love you all.

    • July 12, 2015 at 7:38 pm

      I agree and I am glad for the exchange and glad I addressed this. i don´t feel perfectly good yet but better.

      • 92 vcprezofan2
        July 12, 2015 at 8:35 pm

        Hi, Nilia-t, I’m glad you addressed it as well, and that you feel better for having done so. This entire discussion was outside of my knowledge zone; however, for me, following the lengthy back and forth proved quite informative.

    • 93 57andfemale
      July 12, 2015 at 7:42 pm

      This!

  23. July 12, 2015 at 7:49 pm

  24. July 12, 2015 at 7:59 pm

  25. 98 desertflower
    July 12, 2015 at 7:59 pm

    The exchange about EU and Greece was insightful and respectful….I think this is how problems should be talked about…and why i respect everyone here that posts a thought….I may not agree, but I sure do appreciate the other viewpoints…some even giving me pause. Thank you all. Maybe they can enlist the help of the Iran team when they’re done:)

  26. July 12, 2015 at 8:04 pm

    Since it is 2 am here I will be heading off to bed now. Thanks for the respectful exchange, everyone.

  27. July 12, 2015 at 8:07 pm

    A little update from the German news outlet news tickers. Apparently a temporary “grexit” is off the table, privatising funds is still being debated. I would tell you more but my vocabulary is having issues with fiscal terms at this time and I am not sure I´d translate it accurately in a way you´d recognise the terms used from your news.

  28. July 12, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    Is this the first time someone have tried to imply that Serena is using or have used steroids? It’s my first time hearing about it.

  29. 105 desertflower
    July 12, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_07/both_germany_and_greece_should056533.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+washingtonmonthly%2Frss+%28Political+Animal+at+Washington+Monthly%29#

    “….when you have nation-states joined in a single political entity with a single currency, that still consider themselves sovereign entities.

    If Germans don’t want to be on the hook to bail out Greeks with their sovereign wealth, they need not to be joined at the economic hip with Greece via the Euro and the EU. If the Greeks don’t want to be subject to the unified political demands of the Eurozone (just as some states chafe under the policies decided in Washington DC), then they need not to take the benefits of being part of a single unified political entity with more powerful and more prosperous neighbors.

    If precious national sovereignty is going to trump doing right by people, then it’s best that Germany and Greece sign a political divorce via Grexit and be done with it.

    The alternative would be to put the ideal of sovereignty away, and join together in a more cohesive democratic union that puts everyone in the same boat to sink or swim together.”

    • 106 0388jojothecat
      July 12, 2015 at 10:31 pm

      I hope we can continue our mature, informative, and exchange of ideas regarding Greece and EU. The one thing that struck me was niliathiel’s comment:

      ” I for one do think there is a point in not giving money without some demands at least seeing the mismanagement. I work hard for my Euros, I kind of expect responsibility in how they are being spent and if some of my tax money goes into not bailing out but constantly putting money into an almost bankrupt part of that union which fails to initiate some trust I have a problem with that”.

      I guess I don’t understand the point of joining the EU and having one currency for European nations. What was the point of joining the EU and having one currency? Many of us who live in the so-called “Blue” states consistently bail out the “Red” states who are a financial drain on us because the make sure businesses can pay their people as little as possible, not provide healthcare, and entice businesses from the “Blue” states with low taxes and low wage workers. For every dollar the Red states make they get more back in Federal Government distributions that many of the Blue states send to the Federal Government. We have had many cities, counties, etc., go bankrupt and everyone had to bail them out and eventually they became solvent again but creditors had to take a cut. It does not appear to me that the people who loaned Greece money knowing their finances took much of a hit, am I wrong?

      Once again hopefully we can continue this discussion.


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