Chat Away

Text of remarks here

Hey, we can never see it enough

142 Responses to “Chat Away”

  1. April 28, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    No we can’t. Play it again sam

  2. 10 globalcitizenlinda
    April 28, 2013 at 5:38 pm


  3. 14 criquet
    April 28, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    Agreed, PBO was superb
    Hello all.

  4. April 28, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    Howdy, I haven’t seen it all yet. So glad you’re providing clips. I taped it, but the electricity went of for a minute. Thanks Chips.

  5. 18 SueBee
    April 28, 2013 at 5:39 pm

    Hi… It’s been a while 🙂

  6. 22 utaustinliberal
    April 28, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    I’ve watched Pres. Obama’s WHCD remarks 10,444 times now. It gets better with each viewing.

  7. April 28, 2013 at 5:45 pm


  8. April 28, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    I used the tinyurl that Betsy showed us on another site and it worked great. No sign in pain, nothing. I did want to see a Yahoo series posted, but I don’t want to sign in to another sight. I am getting about thirty junk emails a day. I very seldom got any until last week. Wonder what happened? Just watched the Ides of March. Politicking is creepy. Even when it’s George Clooney and Ryan Gosling. Have you discussed the book, “The Town” or a similar title about D.C.? Curious mind here. . . Don’t know the author.

  9. 31 jacquelineoboomer
    April 28, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    President Obama to name Charlotte mayor Anthony Foxx as transportation chief


    • 35 vitaminlover
      April 28, 2013 at 5:54 pm

      This is great for Mr. Foxx.

    • 36 Indie Liberal
      April 28, 2013 at 6:10 pm

      Nice like a Foxx. 🙂

      • 37 kathryn kivett
        April 28, 2013 at 6:33 pm

        My DIL knows him really well and has since he was in college….calls him Foxxy…says he is genuinely a really nice man and squeaky clean with impeccable resume…just blown away that he is going to be in PBO’s cabinet……protegee of Mel Watts and Harvey Gantt..

    • April 28, 2013 at 6:11 pm

      JO’B, re: your comment about “The French Lieutenant’s Woman” last night.

      Back in the early 1980s, I purchased my first VCR specifically to see two movies; that one and “Day for Night” (Truffaut).

      The most gobsmacking thing to me is that this movie had an “R” rating (for one use of the “F” word). The movie had no nudity (in fact everyone was pretty much covered up from head-to-toe). The MPAA hasn’t advanced much since the 1970s (didn’t “The King’s Speech” carry an “R” rating for profanity?).

      I know it makes us sound like such codgers, but until the 1980s the only way you could see vintage movies was:

      1) Wait until it appeared on TV (and suffer through commercial breaks)
      2) Either live or travel to a city that had a theater which played old movies

      When I was in high school, “The Last Picture Show” had a run of about a year (maybe more?) at a theater in San Diego, but that was unusual. Theaters usually presented new movies every Wednesday.

      • 40 jacquelineoboomer
        April 28, 2013 at 8:36 pm

        Arapaho415 – Not sure I’ve seen “Day for Night” but just looked and it has Jacqueline Bisset in it, another one of my favorite actresses! Will have to check it out. I, too, got my first version of “The French Lieutenant’s Woman” to watch on my VCR, but it was a hazy copy from an old boss of mine, who surprised me with it, after I had mentioned the film to him. Still have it! Of course, I’ve seen it on TV a gazillion times, and a friend of mine later gave me a version on DVD for my birthday, since I mention the film every once in a while and she had no choice but to remember! Not sure if you saw it, but ol’ Jeremy Irons was on CBS Sunday Morning today, and they played a couple-minute clip of it. To die for! Did you ever see Babette’s Feast, also from the ’80s? Loved it, and found out much later there’s a whole sub-culture devoted to analyzing the feast, etc. My favorite part was a poem recited in the film called “Broken Vows.” I shall stop there, or we’ll both be at this all night!

  10. 43 GGail
    April 28, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Again, and Again, and Again!!!!!

  11. 44 Jovie
    April 28, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    Foxx gained national attention for bringing the Democratic National Convention to the Queen City in 2012, and his transportation portfolio includes a new streetcar that broke ground under his tenure. He announced recently that he was not running for reelection, fueling speculation he would be picked for the slot in Obama’s Cabinet.

    His could be the first of several nominations announced this week. Chicago businesswoman and longtime Obama backer Penny Pritzker is still in line for Commerce Secretary, Reuters has reported, and the president is close to choosing White House deputy national security adviser Mike Froman to be the next U.S. Trade Representative.

    • April 28, 2013 at 5:57 pm

      Thanks for insight.

      Hopefully we’ll hear from Bill and Kathryn Kivett (awaiting her baby robins). And isn’t AnnieBella from NC?

      • 46 anniebella
        April 28, 2013 at 6:02 pm

        Yes anniebella is from N.Carolina.

        • April 28, 2013 at 6:14 pm

          Yay for North Carolina; such a beautiful state (I’ve never been to South Carolina), just over the border from my relatives in east Tennesee.

          Let us know how the local press covers this announcement tomorrow. Thanks.

          • 48 daisydem
            April 28, 2013 at 7:36 pm

            Love, love, love East Tennessee …. Fayetteville, Shelbyville, Murfreesboro, Lebanon … all the cities along Hwy. 231 and up to Kentucky. It is some of the most beautiful countryside I have ever seen. It is also horse country … Tennessee walking horses included. Big and beautiful horse farms and estates. Rolling hills. And the small towns off the beaten path so to speak … Sewanee (home of an Episcopal college); Lynchburg, home of Jack Daniels distillery (maybe some of you … hic .. know of this one), and even smaller more picturesque towns like Bell Buckle and Mulberry. Love E. Tennesse.

    • 49 Indie Liberal
      April 28, 2013 at 6:24 pm

      Heard that the unions weren’t sold on Pritzker (true or false). Obama was looking at Ursula Burns, but she wasn’t interested.

  12. April 28, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Someone mentioned they wanted to see a photo of Barbara Streisand at the WHCD—–she’s in this photo collection, sitting next to Michael Bloomberg. No Oprah though—-the other name mentioned.


    • 51 Nena20409
      April 28, 2013 at 6:43 pm

      Thanks Doster….I was…um..um, part of that someone, me 😉 Nena. Thanks a Trillion. I was also looking for Ms Oprah Winfrey Photo too.

  13. April 28, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    Thanks JO’B for Charlotte Observer article; will read now.

    Melanie posted this tweet from the non-Snark Knoller

    And for some reason, Jeff Zeleny (formerly with NYT, now with ABC) was an instant wet blanket:

    West Wing Report was more informative:

    Good for Mr. Foxx (would be cool to have a Foxx at the White House, LOL).

    • 53 daisydem
      April 28, 2013 at 6:18 pm

      Do you think he would ramp up Amtrak and build me some more tracks and some high speed rail? Please!

      • April 28, 2013 at 6:39 pm

        Did you see the links to LAT articles on Gov Jerry Brown’s recent trip to China, which may well inject BILLIONS of dollars into the California economy?

        Six hours to go 800 miles:

        Can you imagine the increased productivity if people could travel between Silicon Valley and Los Angeles in under three hours?

        An enormous boost to this state’s economy.

        Doubt that you’re interested in the articles (since you’re on the East Coast, no?), but if you are, check out @AnthonyYorkLAT timeline from a couple of weeks ago.

    • 55 criquet
      April 28, 2013 at 6:38 pm

      I have to say I find the term “the second black” very odd and incorrect.
      So what about AG Holder and Susan Rice? They are AA and 2 in number. So there are at least 2 AA Cabinet members already.
      The information is not only crass but incorrect.

    • 62 lamh36
      April 28, 2013 at 8:32 pm

      someone should ask Zeleny to give a reasonwhy he thinks confirmation would be tough other than the usual GOP obstruction of Obama nominees

  14. 63 anniebella
    April 28, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    We have that crazy Rep.Virginia Fox, now we have a Foxx with some dam sense. Anthony Foxx.

    • 64 Nena20409
      April 28, 2013 at 6:55 pm

      Fox network, Virginia Fox……all spelled ONE X…….Not so great

      Mayor Foxx and the late Redd Foxx, Jamie Foxx all OK people and great folks.

      OK..Michael J. Fox is with one X……the exception to my attempt at one X in Fox… 😉

  15. 65 lamh36
    April 28, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    ABCFamily has been showing classic Disney animated films all day, Cinderella, Peter Pan, and now Lion King. I’ve always wanted to see the Broadway play, but I keep missing the travelling show.

    Anyway, don’t lie, who sings the intro song at the top of their lungs…??? (Raises Hand…) Okay, I’ll admit it.

    oh, and please don’t laugh, but I know every damn song. My lil sister was like 5 at the time Lion King was released on DVD. My god she watched that damn song EVERY DAY when she wasn’t watching Barney. In fact, she actually learned how to work the DVD remote so she could rewind the song.

    SPOILER ALERT: when Mufasa died, she cired and cried and used to fast forward past it…lol.

    • 66 Alycee (@jazziz2)
      April 28, 2013 at 6:48 pm

      Lamh — If you get the opportunity, SEE IT! The play is fantastic. I saw it several times on Broadway, and when the roadshow was in Providence, I took my grandson and three of his friends, the kids were on their feet singing and dancing through most of the play. We were fortunate enough to be center aisle, they had a blast!

    • 67 lamh36
      April 28, 2013 at 7:18 pm

      Hide ya kids. The 2 saddest scenes in Disney animated kiddie movie history…the death of Bambi’s mother and the death of Mufasa…. 😦

  16. April 28, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    Also, totally off-topic, but I found this heartwarming re: West TX plant explosion catastrophe:
    “Some 75% of West’s 2,800 residents claim Czech ancestry. The ties were felt so strongly that Petr Gandalovič, the Czech ambassador to the United States, was dispatched from Washington within days of the blast to see if help might be needed. Speaking on the sidelines of a NATO summit on April 22nd, Karel Schwarzenberg, the Czech foreign minister, said he would push for a $200,000 donation to help rebuild a community centre. The government cleared that donation on April 24th.”

    • April 28, 2013 at 7:07 pm

      It’s sadly ironic that during the same time that rabid eight wingers were erroniously vilifying the Czechs because of the Boston events, the Czechs were reaching out to help Americans elsewhere.

      • 71 jackiegrumbacher
        April 28, 2013 at 9:58 pm

        Yes, it is ironic, Theo. The world the rabid wingers portray is very different from the one real people live in. All they would have to do to join that world is open their eyes, but then they wouldn’t have the constant hate and paranoia to sustain them.

    • 72 jacquelineoboomer
      April 28, 2013 at 8:55 pm

      What a wonderful story. Hadn’t heard that.

  17. 73 Alycee (@jazziz2)
    April 28, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    Nice to see a journalist respecting the President by including his title in the tweet; burns me when I read ‘Obama’…

    • 74 nathkatun7
      April 28, 2013 at 9:11 pm

      “Nice to see a journalist respecting the President by including his title in the tweet; burns me when I read ‘Obama’…” I feel the same way as you, Alycee.

  18. April 28, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Hello All, as a newbie on TOD, I hav a request, where can I find a photo of the WHCD joke cover “Señor Leisure”?

  19. April 28, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Chips, everyone, it may have been posted in another thread, but in case not and in the spirit of ‘you can’t see it enough’ here is a Youtube of the CSPAN coverage of PBO’s standup routine at the WHPA event in which they show audience reactions, shots of FLOTUS, etc. that you don’t see in the WH version:

    #TrustBarack – He always delivers!!

    • 78 Nena20409
      April 28, 2013 at 7:43 pm

      I have seen this Video ……no lie, at least 10 Times since last night. It is now a full blown addictions.

      So, I wanna a New Drug? Huey Lewis 😉

      I love my POTUS addiction…….. 😉

    • 79 GGail
      April 28, 2013 at 9:32 pm

      On the WH version, you get to see the Senior Leisure magazine, but not the audience or FLOTUS reactions. On the YouTube version you get the reactions, but not the magazine.

      Can anyone put the two vids together?

  20. 80 Jovie
    April 28, 2013 at 7:09 pm


  21. April 28, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    Nothing quite like hanging out in the back yard with the missus, the dog, and a cold cocktail.

    Happy Sunday, all!

  22. April 28, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    So, because you all want to know: tonight’s menu.

    Carne asada on the grill.
    Zucchini sliced lenght-wise, slathered in olive oil, and grilled.

    If any non-SoCal TODers ever make it here, this awaits you.

    And to the SoCal TODers, yes, we must gather at Casa de LL soon for bbq and drinks.

    • April 28, 2013 at 7:47 pm

      But, but, it was doomed because Obama is weak and didn’t smack the pulpit hard enough!!!!!

      • 92 desertflower
        April 28, 2013 at 8:01 pm

        yeah, well…eff them. Second term, baby! We’re doing things a little differently:)

        • April 28, 2013 at 8:03 pm

          Okay, I know what my next essay will be titled: “Obama Unchained”.

          • 94 desertflower
            April 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm

            here’s a good read for you:) h/t Winning Progressive for this on the weekend reading list:)


            The nonsense about what it takes for a president to win a victory in Congress has reached ridiculous dimensions. The fact that Barack Obama failed to win legislation to place further curbs on the purchase of guns—even after the horror of Newtown, Connecticut—has made people who ought to know better decide that he’s not an “arm-twister.” Ever since Obama took office, others have been certain about how he should handle the job and that he wasn’t doing it right.

            Yet if the health care law is allowed to work, despite continuing Republican efforts to try to make sure that it doesn’t, and if we take into account some other victories—the Lilly Ledbetter Act, the stimulus that was as large as the political market would bear, the Dodd-Frank financial regulation bill, the largest since the New Deal if Congress will let it be implemented—his presidency could go down as a time of historic achievement.

            Nevertheless, when an insufficient number of senators was available to kill a hypothetical filibuster of the gun bill—a watered-down measure to expand background checks for gun sales (while opening gaping loopholes)—suddenly the word went out that the president is hopeless as an arm-twister; the assumption of course was that being a good arm-twister was critical for a successful presidency.

            Wait a minute.

          • 95 daisydem
            April 28, 2013 at 8:18 pm

            Love that!

        • 96 prettyfoot58
          April 28, 2013 at 9:10 pm


          2nd term baby….

          Axelrod had that look on his face when PBO made a joke about him…not sure if like it or not….

          but I love …love……love…PBOs performance….does anyone know who writes his material

      • 97 bjw2
        April 28, 2013 at 8:12 pm

        Didn’t hear Dems saying that Bill Clinton couldn’t get healthcare passed because he was weak and lacked leadership did we? I hate that some Dems have fallen for this meme jumping.

        • 98 jacquelineoboomer
          April 28, 2013 at 8:58 pm

          X 1,000,000 !

        • 99 nathkatun7
          April 28, 2013 at 9:50 pm

          bjw2, thank you for speaking TRUTH! And it’s not only Bill Clinton. Healthcare reform was Hillary Clinton’s baby. Bill Clinton put her in charge and she was no able to deliver. This is at the time when there were still some sane Republicans in Congress.

  23. 100 Nena20409
    April 28, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    I am guessing that C-SPAN has the WHCD rights to broadcast? Seriously, they need to hire more folks to capture more goings and activities….well, at least as long as this POTUS is office. After Jan 20, 2017…….Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

  24. 106 bjw2
    April 28, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    Hey TODers, been a long time since I joined the conversation. Ever since my laptop crapped out I’ve been doing the smartphone thingy, and I don’t have to tell anyone how tedious they can be when blogging.

    I’ve been tweeting often and I think back just how many of us here got our start at tweeting from others on this blog giving mini tweeting lessons.

    Chips, these Correspondence dinners always reminds me of the night it was announced OBL was killed and of all times you were not here to partake in the excitement of the night. But it didn’t stop us crazies from thinking we could roust you by typing your name in conversations.

    Thanks Chips, because of this site many of us have found our voice to speak truth to power!

    • April 28, 2013 at 9:18 pm

      Went back and read the OBL thread from May 2011 to relive the excitement of the moment, and yes, those pleas for Chips to wake up were too funny.

      Back then I visited the blog to see what Chips had posted, but her warning about the “rules” of commenting scared me so much I was afraid to even *read* the comments. LOL.

      And, yes, I saw your name on the OBL thread, and wondered “what’s become of some of those commenters,” including yourself.

      Glad to see to you here and now.

      Loved PBO’s “second term” WHCD speech, and agree with Hopefruit that the McConnell and Buzzfeed zingers were among the best. But the entire speech was hilarious.

  25. 109 Roberta in MN
    April 28, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    I thought Conan did a good job. Not as funny as our Pres. but did an excellent job.

  26. 112 lamh36
    April 28, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    As if there was anymore reason to love Elton John, the Lion King Soundtrack and Broadway musical soundtrack is enough.

    Man I love this song.

    Can You Feel The Love Tonight

    • 113 lamh36
      April 28, 2013 at 8:00 pm

      I actually saw him sing this song LIVE. I saw one of his last shows at Caesar’s Palace in Las Vegas.

  27. 114 Nena20409
    April 28, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    Off to Watch Once Upon A Time. Have a Pleasant Evening TODers. See you all tomorrow…….. Same Blog Site, Yep 😉

  28. 115 desertflower
    April 28, 2013 at 8:07 pm



    A Coalition For A Safer Maine has reported that author Stephen King and his wife Tabitha have made an unspecified, though “sizable financial donation” to the group which works to curb gun violence in America.

    Arguing for better regulation of the flow of guns in the state of Maine and across the country, Mr. King confirmed the contribution this past week to The Bangor Daily News, saying:

    “Yes, I can confirm the donation,” Stephen King, a gun owner, wrote in an email to the Bangor Daily News. “I don’t want to give the amount, but as I’ve already said, it was in the five-figure range.”

    • 116 globalcitizenlinda
      April 28, 2013 at 8:39 pm

      okay, line them up (by them I mean those who are claiming that the NRA is untouchable).

      thanks for this info! like PBO said defeat of the background-checks bill was just a first step.

  29. 117 anniebella
    April 28, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    I have been meaning to mention this, but I was glad POTUS explain to Maureen Dowd the difference between a real President and some acting pretending he is a President.

  30. 119 lamh36
    April 28, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    I was talking to someone about sad Disney movie moments, the begginning of UP def goes up there. I remember seeing it with the same sister (she’s 21 now) and we looked at each other and were OMG she lost the baby and then she died before he did…aww

    Someone on YouTube called it the most realistic and heartwrenching love story told in only 8 mins!

  31. 123 Indie Liberal
    April 28, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    Thanks for the chat TODers. I may step away for a while because there are somethings that really bug me (not anyone here).

    I love our President and First Lady, but feel discouraged about those that attack people that work(ed) hard for them and put them on the map.

    I don’t do Twitter, but is very discouraging that the same “pragmatic” people that tweet positive vibes day after day about the POTUS/VPOTUS, but show nothing but vile for Dems that support them. Not talking about the emoprogs (because they can be loud and annoying), but Dems who really working hard to help PBO further his agenda. There are a few Obama Twitter Warriors that are fair and do get what POTUS is doing (i.e. cabinet posts), but others are just plain mean. Which is why I don’t get why people like Randi Rhodes are so popular with the pragmatic Pro-Obama crowd, she has been very nasty to one of Obama’s supporters for no reason.

    This isn’t a knock on those that tweet (and not all is bad), but makes me kinda sad. If love and respect our POTUS, VPOTUS, FLOTUS, and SLOTUS, then you should show the same respect for those that support them all.

    Take care of yourselves. Will be back soon.

    • April 28, 2013 at 9:43 pm

      Don’t get Randi Rhodes mixed up with an emoprog that comes on her show when ever Randi takes a day off or have a vacation they share the same studio. I know because I listen to Randi every day. When ever Randi takes a vacation or a day off and an emoprog comes on to speak, I turn the station off.

      • 125 Indie Liberal
        April 29, 2013 at 12:18 am

        That’s fine. Just don’t care for her or the way she has treated one Obama’s best cabinet members (not talking about Hillary). That has left a bad taste IMO. OTOH, Stephanie Miller is more tolerable. At least she respects our SOS. It’s too bad that people who enthusiastically support our POTUS/VPOTUS can’t follow her lead.

  32. 126 Jovie
    April 28, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    Oh no! Starring Sam Stein and Howard Finenan?

  33. 127 amk for obama
    April 28, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    The rise of CCTV surveillance in the US.


    An interesting read.

  34. 128 amk for obama
    April 28, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    Chat apps mount challenge to Facebook.


  35. 129 amk for obama
    April 28, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    Austerity: Is the European Union changing tack?


    Too little, too late ?

  36. April 28, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Evening Chips, TOD! Been busy…… Anybody have a new post they were planning in near future? Let me know…..

  37. April 28, 2013 at 9:14 pm

  38. 132 lamh36
    April 28, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    5 days until Iron Man 3! Which one of u Iron Man-Stans gonna be at the midnight showing?


    Box Office Report: ‘Iron Man 3’ Opens to Massive $195.3 Million Overseas, Bigger Than ‘Avengers’

  39. 134 anniebella
    April 28, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    Monique Lhuillier the designer who design FLOTUS’s dress for the WHCD said in a email that this was the first time she has dressed a First Lady and it was a dream come true. Now we know why those designers who were trashing FLOTUS taste, were doing it. Because they was upset FLOTUS have not worn any of their designs, and they know she won’t either. Congratulation to Lhuillier, the gown look wonderful on FLOTUS.

  40. 135 prettyfoot58
    April 28, 2013 at 9:20 pm

  41. 137 Alycee (@jazziz2)
    April 28, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    OT: Dollar Tree Alert! Picked up several copies of David Plouffe’s The Audacity to Win at my local Dollar Tree; they also had a pretty good selection of fiction and juvenile fiction (grades 5 – 8).

    When visiting anyone’s home, I love to peruse their bookshelves — discovering new authors/books or finding their taste is similar/dissimilar to mine. Still working on cataloging my library online, almost 3300 down, still about 4000 volumes to go. Feel free to take a look:

    • 138 desertflower
      April 28, 2013 at 9:42 pm

      These are the books in your home library? Wonderful! You’re very organized if you have time to list them out like this:) Mine are on the shelves, being special and beautiful….

      • 139 Alycee (@jazziz2)
        April 28, 2013 at 10:10 pm

        I converted one of the bedrooms into a library. The library website makes it really easy to catalog — plug-in the ISBN by either keyboard or barcode scanner and the site populates the data fields.

  42. 140 Dakota
    April 28, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    Good Evening TOD Family,
    It’s been a busy weekend, but I have watched the WHCD several times. I have a question…Is Ed Henry the most boring man on the planet, or what? Thank the Lord for fast forwarding!

  43. 142 globalcitizenlinda
    April 28, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    earlier, someone posted the video of opening track to The Lion King – thanks. But I must admit that I cannot watch it these days without recalling that a remix of it is the designated “Official President Obama Birth Video” – the short form as PBO said.

    I laughed that the scene where the sign of cross is made on the newborn’s forehead and the scene where various animals bow in worship to the new born, where left in

    suspect that many here remember how PBO used the Lion King on the 2011 WHCD – the day he ordered Seal Team Six to take out OBL

Comments are currently closed.







Enter your email address to receive notifications of new posts by email.



RSS Obama White House.gov

  • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.

RSS WH Tumblr

  • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.

RSS Steve Benen

  • Joe: There is no post-truth world when it comes to the court system
  • Former Labor Secretary warns of banking dangers and recession possibility
  • Air Mail: George Santos, Boris Johnson, Restoration Hardware and Putin 
  • 'White supremacist genius': GOP resort to anti-semitic, racist attacks to defend Trump prosecution
  • The paradoxical relationship between America and poverty



Blog Stats

  • 43,345,338 hits

%d bloggers like this: