Heads Up: ‘A Fireside Hangout with VP Biden’

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White House live



2:30: President Obama will announce the nomination of Mary Jo White to lead the Securities and Exchange Commission

White House live


202 Responses to “Heads Up: ‘A Fireside Hangout with VP Biden’”

  1. January 24, 2013 at 1:32 pm

  2. 3 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Ok, so from what I understand about the tentative deal reached between Reid and McConnell regarding the filibuster is that presidential nominations wouldn’t be blocked, – that could work in Richard Cordray’s favor – it would limit the GOP’s use of the filibuster but still allow them to bring forth two amendments to bills but if the amendments were not relevant to the bill, then it would need a 60 vote majority to kill or accept it and then Reid could block further amendments from taking place. When it comes to non-controversial bills, votes to overcome filibusters would happen the day after Reid files a motion and debate could immediately proceed.

    There’s some good stuff in the deal but it is somewhat complicated because a “non-controversial bill” means different things to Democrats and Republicans, also a “non-controversial presidential nomination” means different things to Democrats and Republicans – Robert Bork was non-controversial to Republicans – and you would still need 60 votes to overcome amendments. I’ll wait and see if their respective caucuses are fine with the deal.

    There’s more in the deal and you can read about it here.


    • 4 sherijr
      January 24, 2013 at 1:40 pm

      thanks ut.

    • 5 hopefruit2
      January 24, 2013 at 1:42 pm

      Thanks ut – it’s always important to understand the details and nuances of such deals before resorting to knee-jerk “OMG he caved” reactions.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:45 pm

      So, the funny thing is that two weeks ago Reid was “Dirty Harry” and everyone loved him. Now he’s a weak, spineless fool. I think I’ll be staying off my TL for a few hours.

      • January 24, 2013 at 1:55 pm

        I’m not going to call Reid names. I still think highly of him but he got a lot of people’s hopes up. Remember when he stood up on the floor and apologized to Merkely and Udall for not reforming the filibuster the last time they had the chance to do so?

      • January 24, 2013 at 2:16 pm

        Yep, this drives me crazy. There’s no one left but thee and we …and we’re not sure of thee.”

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:46 pm

      I still want them to be forced to STAND AND SPEAK if they want to block shit. I’m so over the GOP bullshit. Their intransigence and derangement have driven them insane to the point they not only hate the POTUS, they hate America, and everyone who disagrees with them and they want to destroy this country by any means possible – even an armed insurrection.

      • 10 jacquelineoboomer
        January 24, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Which is why, whenever President Obama (and I’m mostly kidding) announces he is ready to annihilate the GOP, I’ll be ready to join him.

      • 11 57andfemale
        January 24, 2013 at 3:35 pm

        We’re so far from that ever happening. The changes allegedly make it easier to get nominees through. But here’s the loophole: if the nominees are ‘relatively non-controversial’. That’s a loophole that you can drive a truck through. And. They. Will. PBO could nominate Bo to be a dog, and they’d say it was ‘controversial’. Their own Republican ideas that we incorporated in ACA are now straight out of Karl Marx, according to these loons. Allegedly, Reid can make it a lot harder for McConnell to block nominees, but not difficult enough. Oh, and there’s something that I don’t quite follow about having to get Republicans to vote with us. Seriously, Harry?

        I’m listening to all the arguments from all sides. But I come down to one thing: the filibuster in the entire history of the United States Senate has never been abused as it was by this Republican party. It demanded strong action.

        The notion that “we don’t want them to do it to us” if we’re ever in the minority is frankly bullshit. They WILL do it to us, change the rules with 51 votes and neuter us completely if we’re ever in the minority.

        • 12 prettyfoot58
          January 24, 2013 at 5:47 pm

          The notion that “we don’t want them to do it to us” if we’re ever in the minority is frankly bullshit. They WILL do it to us, change the rules with 51 votes and neuter us completely if we’re ever in the minority.



          To me this says to me that they truly do not understand this NEW GOP….

          this is the GOP that gerrymandered their way to keeping a majority in the house….and on the state level these GOP controlled states are passing Voter ID laws that disenfranchise voters…Democratic leaning voters in particular…but essentially all voters……the GOP sees that their days are numbered so they have decided to gerrymander the Electoral votes in those GOP controlled states…

          so while Boehmer says all this nonesene about PBO destroying the GOP they have decided not to change their policies & embrace this change in demographics they are fighting it by obstruction….

          This is truly a challenge to our Democracy…

          The question is…what do WE THE PEOPLE do about it

          • 13 57andfemale
            January 26, 2013 at 11:06 am

            I truly believe that it is imperative that we stay organized and active and vigilant. This is how Repubs got where they are: they ALWAYS voted, they always knew that their enemy was US, and acted accordingly.

            We CANNOT do what Dem’s usually do, which is show up to vote in Presidential elections if they are sufficiently in love with their candidate. This is a generational war, we vote for more and better Democrats in EVERY election, and that includes any local election. We have to or this country as we know it will be gone. That’s not hyperbole — that it the future unless we work.

            Following a lot of commentary on Harry Reid betrayal, there are some silver linings. Coalitions worked together in ways that Dem’s have never worked together (Repubs do it all the time). LGBT, unions, women’s rights. They worked together and actually moved filibuster reform down the field. Without that pressure, there wouldn’t even have been the crumbs we got. What a coalition means is that you work hard even if it isn’t your specific issue. That’s how marriage equality passed in New York. this is what we have to do. We cannot be single issue Dem’s, and we cannot wait to be in love with candidates. We have to support incremental change in order to take back this country.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:47 pm

      You know what I care about? Passing gun legislation. That’s very, very important to our nation.

      Reid says, “I’m not personally, at this stage, ready to get rid of the 60-vote threshold.”

      So, I desperately hope he has the votes for some of the important aspects of gun control because failing to do something about guns WILL be a major disappointment.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:48 pm

      meh. terms like “non-controversial” means the same old obstruction. Who thought money for 9/11 responders would be controversial?

    • 16 jackiegrumbacher
      January 24, 2013 at 3:24 pm

      For Republicans, every bill that originates in a WH idea is controversial, so I don’t know how this helps us. I think they have to define terms. Has there ever been a noncontroversial bill introduced in the last four years?

    • 18 anniebella
      January 24, 2013 at 6:18 pm

      If Republicans can play the same old B.S. as they did before, Senator Reid didn’t do a darn thing and while I won’t call him names I will say I am disappointed, very disappointed.

  3. 19 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Leon Panetta is speaking about lifting the ban on women in combat positions.

  4. 20 carolmaewy
    January 24, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    Hello VP and TOD and Chips! Congrats to Tally.

  5. 21 jacquelineoboomer
    January 24, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    So much to watch. Secretary Panetta is talking “Women in Combat” on C-Span3 TV.

  6. January 24, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Cheers, Tally!!

    Yes We Can

  7. 34 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    Here’s another take on the tentative filibuster deal. I disagree with Ezra on some of the points he made, in that, Democrats were pretty much written off in 2012 and they came roaring back in part thanks to the likes of Akin, Murdock, and others. I could see them winning/retaining their seats in 2014. However, mid-term elections are vastly different from presidential elections and therein lies the problem.

    I also think that Harry Reid should go ahead and fight for full filibuster reform because if Republicans were ever to win the senate in the future (hopefully not 2014) they would not adhere to Reid’s semi-filibuster deal and might even go ahead and enact full filibuster reform that works well in their favor.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:53 pm

      UT, as I noted in the previous thread, if the GOP gains control of the Senate they will do everything possible to be sure the minority party has no tools to block appointments or legislation from proceeding.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:55 pm

      • 37 jacquelineoboomer
        January 24, 2013 at 2:04 pm

        Nobody but nobody needs Ezra’s opinion on anything political. Did I mention nobody?

        • 38 anniebella
          January 24, 2013 at 2:55 pm

          jacquelineoboomer, I agree with you 100%. “F” Ezra Klein. By the way I hope Klein ,Mrs. Klein and that witch Maureen Dowd, Charlie Rangel, and that Dem. Senator from Rhode Island see that the President nominated a woman today.

    • January 24, 2013 at 1:59 pm

      Here’s the thing. These things were always true. Reid and other Senate Dems should have never ever gotten people’s hopes up.
      Never. And now these folks are screaming. Keep it real from the start.

      • January 24, 2013 at 2:04 pm

        THIS. I think it’s hard to feel like we’re constantly lowering our expectations.

        I understand how the sausage is made and I’m not with the PL whiners who are screaming and retreating to their threatening tactics. But it is a real drag to think about the same old BS happening in the Senate. Let’s see if any of these measures amount to a hill of beans.

      • 42 hopefruit2
        January 24, 2013 at 2:12 pm

        I think people ought to behave like the adults that they are when it comes to complex legislation – not like 5-year olds being promised a trip to Disneyland. The time for hysteria and erupting over the slightest “disappointment” is over and we need to start thinking critically about this.

        First of all, the impetus for GOP to simply say “no” and block everything that PBO proposes no longer exists. Their #1 goal, which was to weaken PBO in his first term so that he would not get re-elected, failed by a huge margin. Many of PBO’s current initiatives for his second term – gun control, immigration reform, DOMA repeal, etc are supported by the majority of the country. So the GOP will be repeatedly seen as the obstructionists – their friends in the media can no longer protect them because the MSM has been exposed for their corporate shilling which benefits the GOP.

        Thirdly, PBO has far more leeway than he ever did to directly call out Republicans in congress when they are obstructing – something which he couldn’t really do in his first term.

        • January 24, 2013 at 2:24 pm

          “I think people ought to behave like the adults that they are when it comes to complex legislation – not like 5-year olds being promised a trip to Disneyland.” Thank you. Exactly this.

      • January 24, 2013 at 2:21 pm

        I thought Reid said at the beginning it was a compromise or t he nuclear option. So this is the compromise.

        • January 24, 2013 at 2:55 pm

          That comment was recent. In the beginning, some time last year, he definitely made a lot of people believe we could have real filibuster reform. I’m not endorsing Emo’s and the name calling but I can see why some are angry and disappointed.

          This compromise is too open to interpretation and relies too much on trusting the GOP to do the right thing.

    • 48 jacquelineoboomer
      January 24, 2013 at 2:07 pm

      I would rather hear your thoughts than Ezra’s any day, utaustinliberal. Keep sharing them.

  8. 51 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    VP Biden is live now.

  9. 52 sherijr
    January 24, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    assault weapons ban was not ineffective, what a hogwash comment… it doesn’t even make sense.

  10. 55 sherijr
    January 24, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    oh puhleeze, please tell us Phillip why you need an assault rifle?

  11. 56 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    VP Biden says that an assault weapons ban is effective because law enforcement also supports it and it allows them not to be out-gunned and that it does not infringe on the Constitution and individual rights.

    He says the 2nd amend. to him means that you have the right to own a gun for recreation (e.g hunting) and protection but you do not have the right to own an assault weapon.

  12. January 24, 2013 at 2:11 pm


    • January 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm

      From my piece on TPV:

      The one thing the right has been doing to great effect for the past 40 years is organizing. The Republican Party of Richard Nixon, as right-leaning as it was, no longer exists. It was taken over at a grass-roots level by activists who tacked further and further to the right, until now we have 24 states where the advances of the past two generations are at serious threat.

      And while the right was doing that, the left did not much of anything. We didn’t see the threat. We thought we had won not just the battles, but the war. But the thing about politics is that it’s a never-ending war. To paraphrase, the price of progress is eternal vigilance.

      • January 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm

        Yet I’ve seen articles claiming President Obama killed the Progressive movement. My response: “there was a Progressive movement?”

      • 60 overseasgranny
        January 24, 2013 at 4:30 pm

        Oh, I am so sorry…it’s the proof reader in me. 2nd paragraph….the left did not DO much of anything.
        I agree. We have lost 30 governors and a zillion state senators and congresspeople. It scares me that we are so open and unprotected. The gerrymandering scares me.

    • 61 anniebella
      January 24, 2013 at 3:41 pm

      Sometimes I wonder about Senator Reid and those dam Democrats.

  13. 66 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:21 pm

  14. 68 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    VP Biden says he and Pres. Obama don’t believe in armed guards in school. They believe in training teachers, hiring mental health specialists, hiring psychologists, investing in Project Awareness so that troubled/violent behavior can be spotted. They’re focusing on prevention and not armed guards in schools.

  15. 69 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    VP Biden is fantastic in this discussion about gun violence.

  16. 70 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    VP Biden says he doesn’t view it as gun control but rather as gun safety because no one wants assault weapons in the hands of someone you don’t know anything about. It makes society less safe.

  17. 71 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    • 72 hopefruit2
      January 24, 2013 at 2:33 pm

      That was a nice, informative session with VP Biden. I look forward to more of these Internet “fireside chats” with VP Biden or PBO. Thanks ut for the livetweeting! As always – you’ve done an outstanding job.

    • January 24, 2013 at 2:38 pm

      He was great. He knows all the details of all the arguments because he’s worked on this problem for decades. BRAVO, VP JOE!!

    • 75 a4alice
      January 24, 2013 at 3:23 pm

      Thank you UT! I’m at work and it’s good to hear what VPJoe said. I’m not sure what quite yet to think about the filibuster reform. I’ve come to learn that if the twitterverse is in a tither to take a step back and see how it shakes out.

  18. 76 susanne
    January 24, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    good morning chips and tod ohana!
    how lovely to wake up to our amazing veep! he’s friendly, intelligent, engaging, supportive, and determined–a great spokesperson for the gun safety we need now.

  19. January 24, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Live streaming: President Obama announces nomination of Mary Jo White to lead the Securities and Exchange Commission


  20. 78 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Here he is!

  21. January 24, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    The President is on at White House Live

  22. January 24, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Ooo she brought down John Gotti. You go, Mary Jo!!

  23. January 24, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    Got that one correct, Piers 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

    • 82 jacquelineoboomer
      January 24, 2013 at 8:40 pm

      I didn’t see Mary Jo, but I LOVE his use of “#DeathStare” – I know I shouldn’t laugh (at the creepy Piers), but I LOVED that!

  24. 83 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    There is an annoying fly bothering the President. I think it’s one of McConnell’s personal friends.

  25. 84 auni
    January 24, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    I had heard that Ashley Judd might run against Mitch McConnell. Any truth to that? She was at the White House this last week. I have a feeling she is a pretty bright gal. Any info on that?

  26. 87 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    But but but diversity….

  27. 88 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    How could there be a fly bugging PBO at this time of year?—–freezing there——Obama had to swat him away as he nominates Mary Jo White and Richard Cordray. Mutant fly.

  28. 91 Lana
    January 24, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    I only saw the last two questioners in the chat with VP Biden, but it seemed the choice of questioners was pretty even-handed and VP Joe’s responses felt honest and factual. I am beginning to see a Biden/Clinton ticket coming somehow. I originally thought she would run and maybe tap him for 8 more years as VP, but now I’m not so sure. Wouldn’t Biden/Clinton be a ticket worth voting for and a big step up for both of them, as well as a great way to continue the Obama movement? I know some say we should have a Rubio vs Warren election (moving to the next generation), but I like my politicians with some seasoning.


    • 92 hgerhard
      January 24, 2013 at 6:00 pm

      I’m not nearly as concerned about 2016 as I am about 2014. We need to do everything possible to take back the House and keep the Senate.
      We need to elect Democratic governors as well. If we can defeat the right wingers in the midterm, it will be that much easier for any good Presidential candidate in 2016.

      • 93 prettyfoot58
        January 24, 2013 at 6:13 pm

        i so agree with you hgerhard…we do need to win back our state Houses….
        and we could start with the GOV seat…

        in my state of Pa….the districts maybe gerrymandered but we still elect our GOV state wide….it may take a few election cycles but it can be done….

        In additon…we have to halt the move to gerrymander the Electoral votes…..

      • 94 Lana
        January 24, 2013 at 6:55 pm

        I agree with that, too! I have just been increasingly impressed with Joe Biden! But, yes, if we don’t get the state governments and their horrid redistricting and electoral college scams under control, it won’t matter. And if we don’t start getting all Dems to vote in every election, we have no hope of stopping those who do vote.

  29. 95 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    Pres. Obama: “You don’t want to mess with Mary Jo” She brought down Gotti and those who bombed the World Trade Center. Yup. I wouldn’t want to mess with her too.

  30. 97 utaustinliberal
    January 24, 2013 at 2:51 pm


  31. 98 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    • January 24, 2013 at 3:04 pm

      Talk about genetics!!! Imagine being the granddaughter of one of the Tuskegee Airmen …

      “Her father, Emmett Rice, died in 2011. He was a professor of economics at Cornell University, was a member of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and flew with the Tuskegee Airmen in World War II.”

  32. 100 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    Another mind-boggling plan by repubs to subvert democracy—–another “this cannot be happening” Repub dirty trick

    • 101 Ladyhawke
      January 24, 2013 at 3:03 pm


    • 102 anniebella
      January 24, 2013 at 3:45 pm

      What is clear is these Republicans didn’t learn a darn thing from the last election. They are still plotting to fix and steal elections.

      • 103 prettyfoot58
        January 24, 2013 at 6:07 pm

        This is what i think We don’t get,,,,

        they do understand quite well what the election means…this is their response and if WE do not fight it…i shudder to think what will happen to our Democracy….

  33. January 24, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Important ….

    …. highly consistent with President Obama’s push to afford women equal pay and prospects for advancement.

  34. 105 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 3:02 pm

  35. 106 carolyn
    January 24, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    So glad POTUS and VPOTUS do not believe in armed guards at schools! Schools should NOT become armed camps. They should be a sanctuary for young people. I also like Biden’s framing it as “gun safety” not gun control. Much more positive. These two are tackling sacred cows of the far right….and doing it unapologetically. How great is that.
    When I got home from teaching, I saw the threads about Sen Kerry’s hearings…..those repubs have no respect…..but I think it’s good that the average person can see what they actually are. I have great respect for Sen. Kerry. In fact, he actually came to OKC during the primaries and we went to see him. A huge crowd was there, and he is very impressive in person, and not stiff as people continually say. He talked very knowledgeably about domestic and foreign affairs and took questions. I was SO sad he didn’t win in 2004. I still think that election was stolen.
    I believe he will be a very strong and effective SOS. After president, this is the job he has longed for. His whole life is preparation for this position. Remember his testimony to Congress after Vietnam…..he was so vilified for that by GWB and Rove. He was right about Vietnam, and will not be a party to rushing into any wars.

    • 107 daisydem
      January 24, 2013 at 3:52 pm

      I still think that election was stolen too. And I have never forgotten some of the nasty emails that showed up in my box from “friends” about Kerry’s service during the war …. all in the name of them being “patriotic.”

  36. 108 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 3:05 pm

  37. 110 Ladyhawke
    January 24, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    Virginia GOP ‘freaking out’ over gerrymander bill

    By Laura Conaway


    Meanwhile, the Washington Post reports that the Virginia House of Delegates is having cold feet about the Senate’s surprise gerrymandering this week:

    “My sense is the House is getting squishy,” said the Republican, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to be candid about internal party discussions. “These guys are freaking out. . . . I think they’d like to pass the hot potato.”

    It might be that Virginia Republicans are in the process of figuring out how far is too far for Virginia Republicans.



  38. 111 Ladyhawke
    January 24, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Rachel Maddow Explains Why It’s Dangerous to Leave Republicans Alone Without Adult Supervision

    By: Adalia Woodbury


    Monday was Martin Luther King Day, as well as Inauguration Day. Virginia State Senator Henry Marsh, civil rights veteran spent the day at Barack Obama’s Inauguration. Marsh’s decision meant taking part in a historic moment. Little did he know that his district would look very different when he returned from Inauguration Day festivities. It also meant the 20-20 divide between Democrats and Republicans tipped in the Republicans’ favor. If Republicans had tried to redraw the map when Marsh was present, he would have voted against it. The result would have been a vote 20-20. The Lt. Governor, Bill Bolling would have voted against the gerrymandered map, meaning defeat for the Republicans. This is why it’s dangerous to leave Republicans in control of anything, especially without sufficient adult supervision.

    To say that Republicans in the state senate took advantage of the situation would be an understatement. They took out their gerrymander crayons to redraw the state’s electoral map carving into Marsh’s district while he was at Barack Obama’s Inauguration.



  39. 112 Ladyhawke
    January 24, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Obama Puts Wall Street’s Worst Nightmare In Charge Of SEC

    By Nathaniel Downes


    News around the beltway is all abuzz this morning after the president appointed Mary Jo White as the permanent replacement for Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. In so doing, he is tapping a unique woman, who has served under several presidents and has been the center of many tough prosecutions in her time.
    She is someone who knows how to root out corruption, to find the information needed, and to get results. Wall Street had hoped for a business insider, but has instead gotten a vicious attack dog. This appointment comes on the heels of a newly empowered Securities and Exchange Commission, meaning that the administration has decided to get tough on big businesses who would seek to exploit people for profit.

    That she is now being put back into a position of authority should have the bankers concerned. There is a new sheriff in town, and she will have a clean corporate culture in the US, one way or another.



  40. 115 FiredUpInCA
    January 24, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    For your consideration (from a much longer comment at Talking Points Memo):

    *Would the nuclear option help the Senate’s near-term functioning? No. There is ample room for mischief without the filibuster. The Senate doesn’t do anything — even publish the Record — absent consent. You dont need the filibuster to grind this place to a halt.

    *Even if the Senate passed more bills would they clear the present House? No.

    *If we have a situation like when Frist was majority leader, would the nuclear option likely undermine our ability to prevent extremist votes? Yes.

    *Does Reid’s package achieve much of what Merkley/Udall sought? Yes.


  41. 116 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 3:21 pm

  42. 119 Ladyhawke
    January 24, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Republicans: “We lost because people were too dumb to understand our message”

    by Eclectablog


    See? The reason they got clobbered (again) is not because you thought the Republicans would continue to harm the economy, trample the poor and the elderly, and diminish women in our society. It’s that you didn’t realize they stand for opportunity and for liberty. Also, fresh freedom. Legitimate rape, slegitimate schlrape. You must have been too busy getting all your free Obama stuff to be paying attention, you takers.



  43. 120 57andfemale
    January 24, 2013 at 3:52 pm

  44. 121 anniebella
    January 24, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    So President Obama wants to annihilate the Republicans. Where can I sign up for duty General Obama? Do anyone blame the First Lady for rolling her eyes at John Boehner? Ain’t no telling what disrespecting, disgusting things he said. He is that kind of person. A lowlife piece of shit. All the Republicans are, and so is some Democrats.

    • 122 yardarm756
      January 24, 2013 at 6:48 pm

      To my mind she didn’t “roll” her eyes per se. She did, however, give him the ‘Chicago sister-girl’ side eye. In other words, “No you diiidn’t say that!” ” Let me hurry back to this food before I stick this fork in his neck.”

    • 124 57andfemale
      January 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm

      The Founding Fathers considered making the Senate a supermajority chamber, but they decided against it. As we noted on the show last month: “They rejected that big time.”

      “In a Federalist 22, Alexander Hamilton wrote that a super majority Congress would in practice serve to, quote, ’embarrass the administration, destroy the energy of government, and substitute the pleasure, caprice or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junta to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority.'”

      • 125 jackiegrumbacher
        January 24, 2013 at 4:28 pm

        Smart guy, Hamilton. To think he knew enough over 200 years ago to describe the modern GOP–“insignificant, turbulent, corrupt junta.”

        • 126 57andfemale
          January 24, 2013 at 4:31 pm

          Did you believe the prescience of Hamilton? And Hamilton wasn’t exactly some wild-eyed liberal either.

          Gee I thought Repubs loved these Founding Fathers. Cafeteria-style I guess.

          Did you read the Benen piece, Jackie? It says EVERYTHING we need to know about the filibuster b.s.

  45. January 24, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    Realize that it’s at the orange place and it is a long essay, but it’s worth reading. Here’s an excerpt:

    “Another big change that, to the best of my knowledge, has gone completely unnoticed, is that we’ve finally arrived at an effective way of getting rid of the secret hold! Remember that? Yes, I know we’ve been told twice before (in 2007 and 2011) that the Senate had adopted rules to prohibit the practice, but in neither case have those rules been 100 percent effective. That’s because the power of the hold (secret or otherwise) comes from the ability to filibuster the motion to proceed, something I’ve been telling you for a long time. Now, that ability is severely curtailed—at least for the next two years—by the terms of the standing order. Here’s hoping it’s something they can make permanent! But how’s that for a surprise ending? While you were all watching the right hand carry on about the filibuster, what’s this pulled out from behind the back in the left? Why, it’s a fix for the old secret hold! Ta-da! How do you like that sleight of hand?

    Lastly, I’ll remind you one more time of what happened on Oct. 6, 2011. Formally speaking, it was the very weedy-sounding appeal of the ruling of the chair on a point of order against a motion to suspend the rules and permit the consideration of a non-germane amendment to the Currency Exchange Rate Oversight Reform Act of 2011 during post-cloture debate. But what it ended up being was the exercise by Harry Reid of the power of the majority to change the way the rules are interpreted, such that one of the more egregious abuses of the filibuster that had recently been rediscovered by the obstructionist minority was defeated entirely.”


    BTW, I watched that episode as it unfolded via CSPAN – McConnell was about to swallow his face he was so angry at Reid.


    • January 24, 2013 at 4:55 pm

      David quoted this article from Mother Jones that I hope all of you have read, but in case not:

      Revealed: The Massive New Liberal Plan to Remake American Politics


      Would also note that the day we learned of the launch of Organizing for Action (the next phase of OFA) who did we see making the pitch via video – First Lady Obama. That conveyed so many messages not the least of which is she and the President realize that it will take a decade or more beyond these next four years to undo the damage the plutocrats (& John Birchers) under the disguise of the GOP have done to America and Americans – particularly the middle class.

      Yes We Can

    • January 24, 2013 at 5:09 pm

      Thanks for this, Bob. I’ve been in a generally crabby mood today; partly because of the weather—hard to go back to gloomy winter when we’ve had summer in L.A. for the past 7 days—and partly because, on cue, those on our side rend garments and gnash teeth. You want a more progressive Senate? Then work to elect more progressive Senators. Until then, shut up.

      Ok, I’m going back into my hole for a bit.

    • 132 PoliticalJunkessa
      January 24, 2013 at 5:48 pm

      Good stuff! Thanks for bringing to our attention, Bob.

  46. 133 xtine
    January 24, 2013 at 4:50 pm


    National Democrats are taking steps to create a large-scale independent group aimed at turning traditionally conservative Texas into a prime electoral battleground, crafting a new initiative to identify and mobilize progressive voters in the rapidly-changing state, strategists familiar with the plans told POLITICO.

    The organization, dubbed “Battleground Texas,” plans to engage the state’s rapidly growing Latino population, as well as African-American voters and other Democratic-leaning constituencies that have been underrepresented at the ballot box in recent cycles…

    At the center of the effort is Jeremy Bird, formerly the national field director for President Barack Obama’s reelection campaign, who was in Austin last week to confer with local Democrats about the project.

    In a statement to POLITICO, Bird said the group would be “a grass-roots organization that will make Texas a battleground state by treating it like one.”


    • 134 xtine
      January 24, 2013 at 4:58 pm

      You’re next GA! Hello Dudette!

    • January 24, 2013 at 5:02 pm

      Great news for my cousins who feel like blue marbles in a sea of red. They’re in TX by job relocation…

      • 136 carolyn
        January 24, 2013 at 5:35 pm

        Just told my daughter-in-law about it and emailed the link to her. She loves the sound of it, and might get involved. She is a strong Democrat too and loved what I read to her. My hope is that once Texas does go purple, Oklahoma where I live, and which always LONGS to be Texas, will wake up and start changing too. Liberal Librarian’s predictions are slowly coming to fruition!!!

        • 137 daisydem
          January 24, 2013 at 5:54 pm

          Just told my daughter’s best friend in Austin who used to work for a non-profit on women’s rights (something like Planned Parenthood but encompassing more than that, I think). She will probably be very interested!

  47. 138 Japa21
    January 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    I generally trust Pierce’s instincts (generally, not always) and his take on the filibuster deal is interesting. Finishes this way:

    I think Reid got the best deal he could, and I think he got it within the parameters of what he thought was acceptable, and he did get actual changes in the rules, and not some good-old-boy transaction that the Republicans can ignore the first chance they get. That’s progress, anyway. You want more? Elect different senators.

    Read more: Daily Politics Blog – Charles P. Pierce – Political Blogging – Esquire http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/#ixzz2IvsgwSSB

  48. 139 susanne
    January 24, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    from paul krugman:

    ‘Where Geithner goes wrong is in suggesting that since what should be done over the next decade is fairly modest, we ought to be able to get bipartisan agreement. I don’t know if he really believes this or just feels that it’s what he has to say, but nobody who has actually been paying attention can take this seriously.

    To say what should be obvious: Republicans don’t care about the deficit. They care about exploiting the deficit to pursue their goal of dismantling the social insurance system. They want a fiscal crisis; they need it; they’re enjoying it. I mean, how is “starve the beast” supposed to work? Precisely by creating a fiscal crisis, giving you an excuse to slash Social Security and Medicare.

    The idea that they’re going to cheerfully accept a deal that will take the current deficit off the table as a scare story without doing major damage to the key social insurance programs, and then have a philosophical discussion about how we might change those programs over the longer term, is pure fantasy.’


  49. 140 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    Hmmm…..should give many people pause about using Facebook in the future…

    • January 24, 2013 at 5:04 pm

      I was just thinking today how much I’m getting disgusted with FB…might just “unfriend” it.

    • 142 a4alice
      January 24, 2013 at 6:12 pm

      Never got on Facebook……now I guess I’ve got reason never to get on it. 🙂

      • 143 hopefruit2
        January 24, 2013 at 6:14 pm

        Heh. Smart woman, you. I deactivated my account some time ago. And I’ve never looked back. I don’t miss it.

    • 144 99ts
      January 24, 2013 at 6:13 pm

      I never thought political views should impact what I buy, what I watch on television or where one goes to socialize on the intertubes – but for the past 4 years – there has been a revolution in my thinking – seems weird, but I just can’t help it any more?

      • 145 hopefruit2
        January 24, 2013 at 6:22 pm

        I think with the entry of PBO into national politics and increased general interest among the public, during the last four years we have been made more aware of how certain media platforms, corporations, and other entities can have a big influence on politics in this country – (e.g., FOX NEWS). And we realize that they gain power via ratings, clicks and other forms of public consumption which give them revenue to continue doing damage. And we see the power that WE have to eliminate, reduce or avert that damage – which is to reduce their flow of traffic, clicks, views, etc.

        We are evolving indeed!!

    • January 24, 2013 at 6:56 pm

      When PBO stops using Facebook, then I will too.

  50. 148 carolmaewy
    January 24, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    Posted on last tweet by mistake. Thought a good letter to her Senator.
    Today’s letter to my Oklahoma Senator: “I don’t think you should have restrictions on clips,” said Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who has said he welcomes a Senate debate on guns. “The Second Amendment wasn’t written so you can go hunting, it was to create a force to balance a tyrannical force here.”

    Do we have a tyrannical government, Senator Coburn? And are you part of a tyrannical government? Am I as an Oklahoman suppose to fear my government and build up an arsenal that is greater than my country’s military? Or is my government just afraid of gun manufacturers?

    Did we learn nothing about how to NOT create our own home-grown terrorists like Timothy McVeigh–how to NOT fire-up the individuals who hate and despise LAW that limits their freedom to do as they please whenever they please to whoever they please?

    Words of tyranny can foster violence with already people boasting of preparing to draw blood. How are your words commons sense towards reducing gun violence in America?

    Gun safety is not a second amendment fight. Why make it so in the eyes of the few?

    Gun safety is not just a bi-partisan issue; it is an American issue that stands before the entire world to see how we handle our problems–with violence or with common sense. Do we have good leadership for the common good of every American or just to keep business good for the gun manufacturer?

    Senator Coburn, in Oklahoma I am very aware that the one with the gun likes to shout down and shut up common sense. Just because the voices of the peaceful aren’t beckoning at your door doesn’t mean that Oklahoma wants a bloody fight with our government. Oklahomans would like to think they have good government, but keep it up and see how many Oklahomans will start to believe their local and state and national government is nothing more than tyrants. Is that who you want to be known as? Is that going to be your legacy? Is that when you might find it rewarding to retire from public life and leave the ugliness being created to the next government? Please stop the craziness while you can by choosing to be on the side of common sense, not on the side of rhetoric that fosters anger in the hearts of Americans. Please tell the truth to Oklahomans. Our government is not coming after our guns. They didn’t in 1994 and they won’t be in the future. Can you at least say that without fostering hatred towards my beloved American government?

    • 149 jackiegrumbacher
      January 24, 2013 at 5:24 pm

      Good for you, carolmaewy. This is a great letter and very well stated. You nailed Coburn as being a symbol of the “government” that’s supposed to be so tyrannical. To many in the state he IS the government, so is he inciting hatred and paranoia to be aimed at himself?
      These dumnuts think that they can arouse this kind of rage among gun owners and carefully direct it away from themselves. You made it clear that there’s no controlling terrorists. Timothy McVeigh never asked whether there were Republicans in the building he blew up. It was a symbol and he didn’t care who was in it. Please let us know if you get a response to this.

      • 150 carolmaewy
        January 24, 2013 at 5:29 pm

        I’m sorry, I didn’t make it clear it was written from someone else in OK. I just copied it because we could all use it if we’re in red states. I forgot her name now. Thought I copied it too.

          • 152 carolyn
            January 24, 2013 at 7:49 pm

            Coburn is one of my senators. He’s the “not dumb” one. The other guy is Jim Inhofe who says climate change is a hoax, and some kind of conspiracy. This is what we have to deal with in our state. I will be writing those two also. Her letter is great.
            Our congresscritter is a far right born-again evangelical whose only preparation for serving in Congress was running a youth camp in southern Oklahoma. What a trio! If I were not a irrredeemable optimist, I could get very discouraged living here!!!

  51. 154 carolmaewy
    January 24, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    Do any of you remember the movie “Collateral”? It starred Tom Cruise, Jamie Fox, and Jada Pinket Smith. The first guy Cruise killed fell out a window. Jamie Fox said, you just killed a guy and he fell on my car. Cruise said, No, I didn’t kill him. The bullet and the fall killed him. That has stuck with me every time the NRA opens their mouth.

  52. January 24, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Not sure what’s going on, today – first I post an item from the orange place and now I’m going to recommend that all of you read every word of an essay Michael Moore just published on ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ 🙂

    Here’s an excerpt:

    “Oh – and girl. ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ – a movie made by a woman (Kathryn Bigelow), produced by a woman (Megan Ellison), distributed by a woman (Amy Pascal, the co-chairman of Sony Pictures), and starring a woman (Jessica Chastain) is really about how an agency of mostly men are dismissive of a woman who is on the right path to finding bin Laden. Yes, guys, this is a movie about how we don’t listen to women, how hard it is for them to have their voice heard even in these enlightened times. You could say this is a 21st century chick flick – and it would do you well to see it.”

    BTW, he makes one of the strongest arguments you could hope to read about just how transformational a President Barack Obama was – on day ONE of his Presidency.

    Yes We Can

    • 156 AnitaW
      January 24, 2013 at 5:36 pm

      I saw the movie and loved it. I know a lot of people are turned off because they think it reaffirms torture, but I disagree. I think this movies shows the futility of torture and all the years, lives and money that were wasted because of torture. I can’t understand how people miss it. And, don’t really care for Michael Moore, but he’s right about this being a brilliantly done movie by women. And if more so that the CIA agent who didn’t give up on this search was again a woman. If folks have not seen it I totally think it’s worth the watch.

      • 157 57andfemale
        January 24, 2013 at 5:42 pm

        It makes me so sad that, for quite a long time now, if you show something that was historically objectionable, it means you’re in favor of it. It drives me crazy. No one can do the Merchant of Venice as written because it’s anti-Semitic. Isn’t that the point? To show how history viewed this issue and to discuss why that isn’t acceptable now?

        I haven’t seen this movie yet, but I wondered if your take on it was indeed the case: that just because we showed that showed torture, it meant we approved of torture. Can’t it be exactly the opposite?

        • January 24, 2013 at 5:55 pm

          I haven’t seen the movie, 57, but actually know one of the actors and know that the overarching message is precisely as Michael Moore describes – torture is abhorrent, PBO put a stop to it, and it had nothing, in reality, to do with how OBL was finally found.

          What I’ve commented on before is that both the director of Seal Team 6 and Zero Dark Thirty drove the message that a totally dedicated female CIA analyst was crucial to getting the job done.

          Moore is also bang-on correct by noting that GWB, Cheney and their crime syndicate benefited enormously by NOT FINDING OBL – something many of us have been aware since Tora Bora.

          • 159 57andfemale
            January 26, 2013 at 11:08 am

            I often have to separate the noise from what I KNOW in order to get a handle on what is being believed. the meme is that the movie favors torture because it shows torture — exactly what I was complaining about in my comment. It’s pathetic.

    • 160 jackiegrumbacher
      January 24, 2013 at 5:37 pm

      Well, Bob, only for you would I try either of those two sites, but you’re right, they’re good reads.

    • 163 carolyn
      January 24, 2013 at 5:39 pm

      I made the mistake of reading the comments under the picture. They are unimaginably nasty….

      • 164 auntsis522
        January 24, 2013 at 5:41 pm

        Yuck..Why do we have flys in the White House? And its winter time.

      • January 24, 2013 at 5:41 pm

        Every comment section everywhere is nasty, except for this blog! 🙂

        • 166 Bill
          January 24, 2013 at 5:50 pm

          So true. Sometimes I think the haters are paid by right wing groups. The “left wing” HP is one of the worst.

          • 167 hopefruit2
            January 24, 2013 at 6:10 pm

            I believe you are on to something Bill. I recall reading a comment almost verbatim on two different sites on two different articles posted in two different years. I think they tweak some of them but they are paid auto-commentaries that are recycled.

            In 2011 I kept seeing hundreds of comments from so-called Ron Paul supporters. They were on YouTube, on almost every internet news site comment section. Yet during the GOP primaries Ron Paul could hardly get more than 6% of the vote in a given caucus which told me that Paul didn’t have nearly the level of support that one would be led to believe he had from reading comment sections on Internet sites. Since Romney got the GOP nomination, I observed a dramatic reduction in the number of comments from these so-called Ron Paul supporters and I just don’t see them that much anymore.

  53. 168 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    I see the reason 3 people ended up shot and hospitalized at the community college in Tx. was because one guy “bumped” another guy earlier in the day, gun fight ensued when they ran into each other outside library. Conceal/carry fine and dandy in Tx. but supposedly not on college campuses. New legislation proposed in Tx. now is open carry for licensed owners——fun!—–everyone everywhere armed and dangerous. Craziness. Wild West.

  54. 170 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    • 171 jacquelineoboomer
      January 24, 2013 at 6:23 pm

      This kinda struck me funny, because Hispanic population is kinda “huge” all across our country. But I guess since he was “reliably told” all this, I must be mistaken.

  55. 172 jacquelineoboomer
    January 24, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Sister Simone is coming up on Rev. Al’s show.

  56. 173 a4alice
    January 24, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    rats. Burst pipes. no fun. wah. Luckily got a plumber out to put in a couple of stops so we have water in the house again.

  57. 178 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 6:25 pm

    Hey Jovie – Chris Hayes will be on Lawrence tonight.

  58. 179 hopefruit2
    January 24, 2013 at 6:27 pm


  59. 180 isonprize
    January 24, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Waah, video of VPBiden talking about gun violence is private?

  60. 183 dotster3
    January 24, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    Ia. Repubs bitter and angry that Obama won Iowa will introduce legislation requiring photo ID for voting, geared to suppress Dem constituencies, of course. I think I remember after some extensive study in Iowa, they found 6 cases of voter fraud in the last 10 years, so naturally Repubs thought this deserved attention and new legislation. State Repubs in numerous states are doing whatever they think they can get away with to suppress the Dem votes and manipulate election outcomes. At least the comments I read here were along the lines of ‘why are the Repubs wasting time and money on this dumb thing?’


    • 184 hopefruit2
      January 24, 2013 at 6:48 pm

      I’m thinking that all this talk of voter suppression, gerrymandering, redistricting, etc will not succeed if Democrats do their civic duty and come out and vote. Democrats need to stop being so damn lazy and fickle and get their arses out and vote. Last year it was the meme that Citizens United would cause PBO to lose. That didn’t happen because Democrats were out in full force. And Democrats need to stop requiring a tingle up their leg to get them to the damn polls. Politics is your civic duty, it’s not a tingle-me-Elmo sport. This is your life, your children’s lives, your future.

      No Repub can manipulate me into not voting or voting against my interests, no matter what dirty trick they try. An informed and motivated Democrat is the Republican’s worst enemy.

      • January 24, 2013 at 7:20 pm

        All of this. We see it coming and yell “oh no” instead of okay now what’s our plan of action? You answered it beautifully. Vote!! Voter suppression, gerrymandering, redistricting, election machines, big money, obstructionist GOP, in the bag media and dog whistling had it all rigged for Romney. How’d that turn out?

      • 187 dotster3
        January 24, 2013 at 7:21 pm

        I refuse to start worrying now, but at some point I will worry about turnout with Obama NOT on the ballot. We don’t need any more 2010’s or similar outcome with a presidential election.

        • 188 hopefruit2
          January 24, 2013 at 7:30 pm

          Yes I agree. I hope Democrats learnt their lesson from 2010 and understood that midterms are just as, and in some cases more important than Presidential elections. My concern is that all this talk of gerrymandering and rigging election in the media only serves to dampen enthusiasm among DEMS. If people don’t understand their own power, they will fail to use it when necessary. As I said, an informed and motivated Democrat is the GOP (and MSM’s) biggest threat.

  61. 189 vcprezofan2
    January 24, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    Sure could have used a fireside while traveling home, nevertheless I’m back where I belong. Thanks to all who sent a magic carpet to cushion my ride. It was felt. Now off to see what has happened while I was in the clouds, then on the road again.

    • 190 cookemom
      January 24, 2013 at 7:00 pm

      Cheers to your safe landing. Did the pilot person manage to stay in the proper lane, with no tailgating, speeding, or popping wheelies? I hope you were able to, if not totally enjoy the ride, at least have some comfort in the wild blue yonder.

      • 191 vcprezofan2
        January 24, 2013 at 7:15 pm

        TY, neighbour. The pilot was remarkably restrained, avoiding almost all the potholes, for which I thank him/her. The start was a bit rough, but s/he controlled things very quickly. Wish I could ask for him/her next time I have to fly.

  62. 192 auni
    January 24, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Just got a little note from a conservative relative about President Obama not holding a Day of Prayer event at the White House. Same old far right crap. Anyway, in reading up on it seems Shirley Dobson, wife of James Dobson , is the chairmen of said event. George W. had the event every year while he was in office. Mostly because he and Dobson were such good buddies. Dobson’s Focus on Family sent out a letter before President Obama was elected the first time which predicted dire things would happen if Obama became president. The Boy Scouts would be eliminated, gas would be $7 a gal. by 2010, terriorsts bombs would explode in two large and two small cities, parents freedom to home school would be restricted, conservative talk radio would be shut down by 2010, high schools would outlaw See You at the Pole, and first graders would be taught a gay life style. Good ol’ Shirl had a hissy fit about her prayer service being dropped. Can’t imagine why President Obama would want those dreadful lying people in the White House!!!!

    • 193 yardarm756
      January 24, 2013 at 7:22 pm

      Sounds like a good faux-Christian to me. WWJD?

    • 194 anniebella
      January 24, 2013 at 7:35 pm

      auni, I’m so glad I don’t have any close relatives who are Republicans. If I did, I wouldn’t have any close relatives. These people try to fine fault with President Obama every where they can. Tell Shirley Dobson to go to Texas when he G.W. buddy is staying.

    • 195 dotster3
      January 24, 2013 at 7:44 pm

      James Dobson is one of the more mentally ill people I have ever read about. He has led so many parents astray, advocating physically disciplining your children into submission, breaking their wills. I imagine he is responsible for so many sick, bullying, abusive, self-destructive adults in our midst who grew up in “Christian” homes whose parents read and adhered to his warped parenting advice. I never forgot the segment of his book I read years ago where he joyously tells about taking out his belt and beating his “pet” dachshund up and down the walls, breaking his will, gaining some kind of authoritarian control over him. Dobson was abused as a child, he abused his children (and pets) and instead of getting mental health help and breaking this sick cycle, advocated this same kind of abusive child rearing to the parents in his flock.

  63. January 24, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    What a wonderful inauguration day. Thanks to Chips and TODville for all the videos, links and commentary. (Still catching up.)

    Here’s a feel-good story completely unrelated to politics.

    “Stricken dolphin who ‘asked’ Hawaii diver for help: Moment mammal stuck on fishing line pushed itself into scuba instructor and waited patiently to be freed”

    Susanne: Is this big news in Hawaii?

    Heartbreaking to think of the dolphin’s suffering, but wonderful to think of how intelligent it was, knowing that humans could help him out. So glad the story has a happy ending.


    I know the Daily Mail is a rightwing rag, but I consider them the UK alternative to HuffPo; the site is much easier on my computer to navigate than HuffPo’s).

    Here’s the 8-minute video:

  64. 197 Ladyhawke
    January 24, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    No price for unprecedented obstructionism and destructive governance

    By Greg Sargent


    Norman Ornstein, an observer of Congress for decades, literally wrote the book on GOP obstructionism. So I asked him what he thought of the disappointing filibuster reform deal reached today between Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell. His reply:

    “To avoid disruption right now, they opted for greater efficiency in the operation of the Senate, rather than providing a much higher hurdle for obstructionism. They are going to make it easier to move things, but they are not extracting a price for bad behavior right now.”

    This is exactly the problem. Today’s reforms do nothing to discourage, or extract any price whatsoever for, precisely the type of unprecedented and destructive party-wide obstructionism that launched the push for reform in the first place.
    And Norm Ornstein tells me he believes McConnell may be a bit more reluctant this time to engage in the same old obstructionism, because Reid still can change the rules mid-stream later — and having proven willing to act, just may act again if the GOP resorts to business as usual. More pressure from outside — and the addition of more energetic liberals to the Dem caucus — can help make this more likely. So the story is not over, though it certainly was a disappointing end to this chapter.



    • January 24, 2013 at 7:46 pm

      He might be gambling that Mitch is ready to be more productive this time around. The difference being that PBO flat out broke McConnell on election night and he’s been retreating ever since. He can be an ideologue but Mitch knows how to count and 2014 is coming real soon.

      Reid may have some kind of gentleman’s agreement from McConnell that Republicans won’t do in this session what they did in the last. We will see.

  65. January 24, 2013 at 7:37 pm

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